Papacy Unnecessary?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WhiteDove
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mercygate said:
Constantine? Gimme a break. Do the words “development of doctrine” mean anything to the man?

Yes, it most likely does. I think he was saying that the Petrine Ministry can be expressed differently eventually. In other words, things aren’t set in stone the way they are today.

Knowing this priest, probably some very strong opinions and emotions were behind his statements, of which I’m not privy. But, I would hardly write him off as a dissenter.
 
Tantum ergo:
Hmmm, methinks a little learning hath made your priest mad. . .as well as potentially dangerous to your faith. . .
Well, my priest has STD after his name, I think that requires some in depth knowledge and study. I, however, am not well versed. He said that since the doctrine of infallibility was given to the Pope, I don’t remember when but was but in relatively recent century, that a Pope has made only one infallible proclamation in the 1800’s regarding Mary. I think it was something to do with the assumption or virginity of Mary, I’m sure you know better than I.
 
Letters after a name or years of study don’t necessarily make a person accurate in his knowledge or teaching of said knowledge. . .I should know, I work in academia with a whole host of those with “credentials” who think that they know everything about everything, and sneer at their colleagues, their students, and especially the staff or the “great unwashed” as being ignoramuses of the first order. . .

But I digress.
Certainly your priest appears to be a scholarly fellow. Equally, the majority of posters here, while we may not have degrees in theology, find some of his ideas at best questionable and at worst approaching near to schism or heresy if not apostacy. That is one of the dangers of a “little learning”.

Now, there are quite well-known scholars such as Father Richard McBrien who have been dancing rather close to the edge. . .no one would deny that McBrien is intelligent and has an impressive list of credentials. . . but not only is a lot of the material he has studied “suspect” in and of itself, his own “interpretations”, while HE might find them fascinating and indeed “worthy”, are not necessarily correct, truthful, or even helpful to himself or any other Catholic.

I’ve been on the EWTN sites and seen all the little “documented” blah-stories of how there have been NO infallible pronouncements, ONE pronouncement, TWO pronouncements, heck, anything up to “hundreds of thousands” of pronouncements. . .and every one of the scholars on a particular position has heaps of little citations from all sorts of books, articles, and their own personal “research” to “prove” their point. Problem is, they can’t all be right.

So I actually tend to walk away (slowly) from those like your priest who come out with a bare-faced statement purporting to “really know” about things like infallibility and the Petrine succession etc.

To my mind, a non-biased person/ scholar would be careful to acknowledge that his or her position is ONE OF MANY, to iterate some of the others, and to give enough information to allow his hearers to make an intelligent choice themselves.

I’ve dealt with too many who tell us, “Scholars recently have determined that most likely this. . .” and then dump all over “what the Church taught in the past was most likely incorrectly understood by people”. These scholars are always right there telling us how much MORE we know today, how ignorant people were in the past, and how much better we know an event that took place 2000 years ago than the people who actually lived then did.

Rant over. 😃
 
40.png
WhiteDove:
My priest says that the papacy as we know it is not a necessary expression of the Petrine Ministry. He says that this ministry was handled differently in the church in the past. He says that we don’t live for the Pope but for Christ.

What do you think?
We are under the authority of the Pope, who was given authority by Christ, sheep without a shepherd, not a good idea, then we can just follow our own whims.
 
40.png
chicago:
I think that the Anglican comment was tongue in cheek.

Well, there is some truth to that. And, actually, Pope John Paul II postualted the same thing. Often, when a comment like what you originally posted is mentioned, it is usually due to a person having an authority problem who wants to just democratize everything. However, it may be the case here that your priest is taking up a discussion about what the most appropriate role of the Petrine ministry is in our day and how it could, perhaps, be best positively reshaped for our times. That is a legitimate discussion and something that the pope encouraged, particularly concerning relations with the Eastern and Orthodox Churches.
I refer to Post #11 by Chicago yesterday 4.46pm

I found the above quoted paragraph interesting. First from another Post above, how did the Petrine Ministry function prior Constantine?
I can certainly insight that in today’s world, any Pope has a massive responsiblity and overwhelming duties on his plate?..almost I would think anyway too much for one man if Grace and The Holy Spirit were not with him. Certainly to my mind it is an unenviable ‘job’! I never realized that The Catholic Church could function other than with a Papacy and one Pope. We are a monarchy under Jesus Christ…and in honesty and I am seeking to understand…can the ‘Papacy’ function within the laws of Catholicism as something other than the Papacy as we know it?
i.e. is it possible within our laws for the Papacy to be a commitee or something similar? …I can’t quite get what is being inferred in this thread and probably my poverty! My mind is open, I am merely seeking to understand?

Barb
12.45pm
 
Dear Barbara,
I wasn’t inferring anything, just raising the topic because my priest gave a homily on the subject. He said that the Petrine Ministry is one set up by Christ through Peter, but the Papacy as we know it evolved over time, and could continue to change in it’s form in the times to come.
 
40.png
WhiteDove:
He said that during WWII they were even talking about moving the Church headquarters to Quebec. He said that it doesn’t have to be set up the way it is now.
Hi White Dove. I remember reading a biography of St Catherine of Sienna and she was on a mission to convince the pope that the headquarters belonged in Rome not France. It seems to me that there is plenty of reason not to move it. I wonder who your priest meant by “they.”
 
ANY dogma is an INFALLIBLE doctrine, divinely & formally revealed by God as a necessary truth for salvation. EXTRAORDINARY Magisterium is an EX CATHEDRA pronouncement of the Roman Pontiff (Immaculate Conception by Pope Pius IX) or a DE FIDE statement of an Ecumenical Council (Justification by the Council of Trent). ORDINARY Magisterium is the perennial teaching of the Pope and the Bishops in union with him around the world. To capriciously say that ONLY EXTRAORDINARY MAGISTERIAL dogmas are infallible is FALSE and heretical. Lumen Gentium #25, Humani Generis #21, both solemnly teach on the supreme teaching authority of the ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM. Some Catholics wrongly believe that ONLY “ex cathedra” Papal Statements are infallible. This would limit infallible dogma to two, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Obviously, only 2 infallible dogmas in 2,000 years sounds very sparse. Some theologians incorrectly proliferate a notion that ONLY the Extraordinary Magisterium is infallible.
ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/TRIGINFL.HTM
 
40.png
WhiteDove:
According to my priest, there has only been one infallible proclamation by a Pope in the history of the church which wax that of the perpetual virginity of Mary. I thought that was interesting. Not everything the Pope says is infallible.
I think I need more of an explanation of what that means. Not everything the Pope says is infallible could include his pick on the Superbowl. 😉 . Obviously, not infallible.

Only one infallible proclamation? That doesn’t sound logical. I know that there are posters better educated than I am in this subject so maybe someone can help me. Aren’t the encyclicals infallible? Aren’t there other proclamations that are considered infallible? What are the rules of infallibility. Ahhhh, a good question for the apologetics forum, huh?
 
40.png
SusanL:
I think I need more of an explanation of what that means. Not everything the Pope says is infallible could include his pick on the Superbowl. 😉 . Obviously, not infallible.

Only one infallible proclamation? That doesn’t sound logical. I know that there are posters better educated than I am in this subject so maybe someone can help me. Aren’t the encyclicals infallible? Aren’t there other proclamations that are considered infallible? What are the rules of infallibility. Ahhhh, a good question for the apologetics forum, huh?
Yes, I would be interested in finding out more about this. Maybe someone will enlighten us from a different POV. Perhaps my priest is in favor of a more decentralized version of the Papacy, I’m not sure.
 
Well, no matter what I think about his statements on this particular matter, I’m going to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet this afternoon for him, and for all priests and religious. God bless them for their ministry. I’m very grateful for the very many priests and religious who work selflessly throughout the world in service to God.
 
Dear Tantum,
Thanks. I think we all need to have this attitude towards our clergy. They are human beings with all the flaws and imperfections of any other, who give their lives to the service of God. Some folks just don’t want to give them a break.

God Bless! 🙂
 
Actually in regards to the fact that the current papacy isn’t how it was always done is a correct statement. In the very early days of Lineus and his successors the papacy was more the chairman of a board of clergy who ruled the roman diocese.
 
Strictly speaking every thing proclaimed by a Pope carries differing levels of authority. Ex Cathedra proclamations as defined at Vatican I are relatively rare. As I recall the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption proclamations were the only two to reach that level of authority in modern times. There are two lower levels of authority which exist and which require assent and acceptance. Some of these are reformable proclamations which may be changed, adjusted, or even over ridden by a later Pope.I believe there is a relatively easy to read book by Richard Gaillardetz that explains a lot of this. There were people at Vatican I who wanted to make almost every utterance of the Pope Infallible. This did not take place. One of the reasons that infallibility was definjed at that time was because of the struggle between the Papacy and the newly formed nation of Italy over ownership of the Papal States and the city of Rome.
 
40.png
WhiteDove:
Well, my priest has STD after his name, I think that requires some in depth knowledge and study.
What exactly do those initials represent, in this context?
 
40.png
WhiteDove:
Dear Barbara,
I wasn’t inferring anything, just raising the topic because my priest gave a homily on the subject. He said that the Petrine Ministry is one set up by Christ through Peter, but the Papacy as we know it evolved over time, and could continue to change in it’s form in the times to come.
I do not wish to quibble about the particulars, but taking this statement just as it is… he is correct.

The Papacy has definately evolved, every century has seen some change in it’s manifestation and we probably (my guess) will see some major changes in the future.
 
40.png
WhiteDove:
My priest says that the papacy as we know it is not a necessary expression of the Petrine Ministry. He says that this ministry was handled differently in the church in the past. He says that we don’t live for the Pope but for Christ.

What do you think?
I think I’d find a new priest.

Well, you did ask… :whistle:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top