Papal authority -- the unbroken line

[BartBurk]

Peter was told he was Rock and that the church would be built upon him. The gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against the church because of the authority given to Peter and passed down in an unbroken line of his successors.

When I see the way the pope is chosen by the College of Cardinals meeting together, it is hard for me to imagine the authority could ever have been lost. While they may have chosen a few bad popes, they never chose one that changed the faith and morals of the Catholic Church. This seems to me to be the Holy Spirit moving to protect the church from error. That has been going on for almost 2000 years. How can you expect to find this authority in any other church?

 

[MDK]

Peter was told he was Rock and that the church would be built upon him. The gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against the church because of the authority given to Peter and passed down in an unbroken line of his successors.

When I see the way the pope is chosen by the College of Cardinals meeting together, it is hard for me to imagine the authority could ever have been lost. While they may have chosen a few bad popes, they never chose one that changed the faith and morals of the Catholic Church. This seems to me to be the Holy Spirit moving to protect the church from error. That has been going on for almost 2000 years. How can you expect to find this authority in any other church?

Yes. A good illustration of the charism of infallibility is just that, there have been some popes who have behaved badly, yet the teaching of the Church have never changed. As a visible head of the Church, with the charism of infallibility, the Pope protects the Church’s teachings. However, the pope can sin in his personal life, and goes to confession. It’s always good to see the pope, which for me is a reminder of Apostolic Succession and living witness to the promises of Christ.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Two questions.

1. If the Spirit were present in voting for a new pope, why would it ever take more than one vote to select one?
2. Would you argue for the authority of the kings of Israel? After all, it was a (mostly) dynastic line and the requirements of the office didn’t change…but there were still kings forsaking God and committing child sacrifice to other gods.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Two questions.

1. If the Spirit were present in voting for a new pope, why would it ever take more than one vote to select one?
2. Would you argue for the authority of the kings of Israel? After all, it was a (mostly) dynastic line and the requirements of the office didn’t change…but there were still kings forsaking God and committing child sacrifice to other gods.

1. The apostles voted to replace Judas. Do you think it was unanimous? What if there had been a tie?
2. No. I wouldn’t argue against them either, however.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

1. The apostles voted to replace Judas. Do you think it was unanimous? What if there had been a tie?
2. No. I wouldn’t argue against them either, however.

According to Acts, the apostles cast lots and Matthias was chosen. That’s quite a bit different than an active conscious vote.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

According to Acts, the apostles cast lots and Matthias was chosen. That’s quite a bit different than an active conscious vote.

I STAND CORRECTED.

How does that work?

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

I STAND CORRECTED.

How does that work?

It’s not specified, but if it would be similar to the casting of lots in the Old Testament (via Urim and Thummim), it’s likely that it involved throwing a set of something similar to dice for the purpose of divining God’s intentions. “Similar to dice” would probably be pieces of wood, stone, or animal bone that would have some sort of visible mark on them.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It’s not specified, but if it would be similar to the casting of lots in the Old Testament (via Urim and Thummim), it’s likely that it involved throwing a set of something similar to dice for the purpose of divining God’s intentions. “Similar to dice” would probably be pieces of wood, stone, or animal bone that would have some sort of visible mark on them.

Would the end result be much differnent than polling cardinals if God was in charge?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I think that if God is in charge we should trust his judgment and seek it.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Would the end result be much differnent than polling cardinals if God was in charge?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I think that if God is in charge we should trust his judgment and seek it.

I agree with the latter, but not the former. Maybe it’s an issue of omission, but I never saw “The Urim and Thummim were cast, but a tie resulted. So it was cast again and again, over twenty times, until God’s will was determined.”

Now, it does refer in 1 Samuel to a case where divine will could not be determined because of Jonathan eating honey. As for how Jonathan’s act was discovered, it was by casting the lots.

 

[RebeccaJ]

According to Acts, the apostles cast lots and Matthias was chosen. That’s quite a bit different than an active conscious vote.

Almost…the remaining 11 Apostles first selected two, Matthias and Barsabbas. Then they “gave lots to them and the lot fell upon Matthias”. I’m not sure if casting lots, and giving lots, are the same thing.

The process is irrelevant, either you believe God guides His Church, or you don’t.

 

[MDK]

Almost…the remaining 11 Apostles first selected two, Matthias and Barsabbas. Then they “gave lots to them and the lot fell upon Matthias”. I’m not sure if casting lots, and giving lots, are the same thing.

The process is irrelevant, either you believe God guides His Church, or you don’t.

Yep. That’s what it comes down to.

 

[Scientiphic]

Peter was told he was Rock and that the church would be built upon him. The gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against the church because of the authority given to Peter and passed down in an unbroken line of his successors.

When I see the way the pope is chosen by the College of Cardinals meeting together, it is hard for me to imagine the authority could ever have been lost. While they may have chosen a few bad popes, they never chose one that changed the faith and morals of the Catholic Church. This seems to me to be the Holy Spirit moving to protect the church from error. That has been going on for almost 2000 years. How can you expect to find this authority in any other church?

I have only ONE question.

How did Peter establish catholicism? I mean Peter was already dead at around AD 70. But catholicism only started in AD380. A difference of over 300 years !!!

How do Catholics show that the ‘baton’ was indeed passed down, if any, since Peter would have been dead for centuries.

 

[BartBurk]

I have only ONE question.

How did Peter establish catholicism? I mean Peter was already dead at around AD 70. But catholicism only started in AD380. A difference of over 300 years !!!

How do Catholics show that the ‘baton’ was indeed passed down, if any, since Peter would have been dead for centuries.

My understanding is that all of the Popes were elected and ordained Pope by the laying on of hands. Of course after Peter died a new Bishop of Rome was elected and ordained. That’s how it has always been.

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s not specified, but if it would be similar to the casting of lots in the Old Testament (via Urim and Thummim), it’s likely that it involved throwing a set of something similar to dice for the purpose of divining God’s intentions. “Similar to dice” would probably be pieces of wood, stone, or animal bone that would have some sort of visible mark on them.

How do you know all these - a guess here and there, perhaps? - would be, would probably. Would you be more confident if you can quote those who were actually there? Or those who recieved the words of those who were actually there?

 

[Rolltide]

I have only ONE question.

How did Peter establish catholicism? I mean Peter was already dead at around AD 70. But catholicism only started in AD380. A difference of over 300 years !!!

How do Catholics show that the ‘baton’ was indeed passed down, if any, since Peter would have been dead for centuries.

You are working from a faulty premise. Only Protestants believe that the Catholic Church was founded in 380 AD (and even among Protestants, most of them at least acknowledge that the Council of Nicea during the reign of Constantine in 325 AD was a Catholic council). Catholics and Orthodox believe that the church began with Jesus commissioning Peter in 33 AD. There is ample historical and biblical evidence to support this position. There are lists of popes. Ignatius of Antioch writes about the “Catholic Church” as early as 110 AD, just 10 years after the death of John. The writings of Clement of Rome, the 4th pope, are extensive, and he discusses the church. The heirarchy of bishops was established very early, as is evidenced by the numerous writings of the Early Church Fathers. The only thing that happened in the 300s AD was the legalization of Catholic Christianity, not its formation. (Some like to think that it’s only when large, visible churches are constructed that the Catholic Church began, but remember that before Constantine, the church was persecuted, so church construction was impossible for anyone before that time. That doesn’t mean that Catholics weren’t operating underground.)

 

[cfrancis]

I have only ONE question.

How did Peter establish catholicism? I mean Peter was already dead at around AD 70. But catholicism only started in AD380. A difference of over 300 years !!!

How do Catholics show that the ‘baton’ was indeed passed down, if any, since Peter would have been dead for centuries.

What is your source for the highlighted statement above?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

How do you know all these - a guess here and there, perhaps? - would be, would probably. Would you be more confident if you can quote those who were actually there? Or those who recieved the words of those who were actually there?

Here’s a brief introduction Urim and Thummim:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

as well as casting lots:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleromancy

The exact details of what they were made of, whether they were 2 objects or 2 sides of one object, etc. involves some speculation, but the idea that “rolling the dice” was used to determine God’s will at times in both the Old and New Testaments is not.

 

[Sailka]

:coffeeread:

I have only ONE question.

How did Peter establish catholicism? I mean Peter was already dead at around AD 70. But catholicism only started in AD380. A difference of over 300 years !!!

How do Catholics show that the ‘baton’ was indeed passed down, if any, since Peter would have been dead for centuries.

Believe in the Bible, Scient? Believe in Facts? Believe in proven History?

How do you figure that Catholicism began aound 380? Bought that far out line? :dancing: Sell you any bridge, reduced price, near you. Brooklyn bridge sold few too many times.
Try the Bible? Mathew 16:18-19 Says it All: The Lord Jesus Christ began the Catholic (Christian) Church with St Peter The Rock upon which He ** created The Chrch Then. Who do you think were the Chistian Martyrs of the First Centuries? The Apostles Weren’t their Teachers?
And, Scient, Know of the “Photographic” ** evidence of The Lord, proven by scientists only, only conclusivelly since year 2000?. Scient, Search the Shroud of Turin Scientific site! Where do you think the ‘internal energy’ came from, causing the No paint, non-human-altered Negative came from?
Just maybe the miraculous divine ‘energy’ of the Resurrecting from Death Lord?
I’m ‘from Missouri’ too, Scient. All facts, all proven evidence. :yyeess:

PS: And the Burial Site Of Peter himself, with earliest centuries inscriptions, is Under the Main Altar of St Peters Basllica. And All Popes St Peter on, wioth years they reigned as Pope are Recorded, readily available.
:coffeeread:

 

[Sailka]

Two questions.

1. If the Spirit were present in voting for a new pope, why would it ever take more than one vote to select one?
2. Would you argue for the authority of the kings of Israel? After all, it was a (mostly) dynastic line and the requirements of the office didn’t change…but there were still kings forsaking God and committing child sacrifice to other gods.

Good questions.

(1) The Holy Spirit is seen in the 2000 years results of those chosen to be Pope, not all elected. There is no significant dogmatic or teaching change in 2000 years: The Papacy did not control or operate the Inquisition, the Crusades, or selling indulgences. God lets all of us use Free Will throughout life.

(2) The Kings/Rulers of Isreal were political, inheritance chosen for the Ruling of Isreal, not the Faith. Not appointed by God.
:coffeeread:

 

[Scientiphic]

:coffeeread:

Believe in the Bible, Scient? Believe in Facts? Believe in proven History?

How do you figure that Catholicism began aound 380? Bought that far out line? :dancing: Sell you any bridge, reduced price, near you. Brooklyn bridge sold few too many times.
Try the Bible? Mathew 16:18-19 Says it All: The Lord Jesus Christ began the Catholic (Christian) Church with St Peter The Rock upon which He ** created The Chrch Then. Who do you think were the Chistian Martyrs of the First Centuries? The Apostles Weren’t their Teachers?
And, Scient, Know of the “Photographic” ** evidence of The Lord, proven by scientists only, only conclusivelly since year 2000?. Scient, Search the Shroud of Turin Scientific site! Where do you think the ‘internal energy’ came from, causing the No paint, non-human-altered Negative came from?
Just maybe the miraculous divine ‘energy’ of the Resurrecting from Death Lord?
I’m ‘from Missouri’ too, Scient. All facts, all proven evidence. :yyeess:

PS: And the Burial Site Of Peter himself, with earliest centuries inscriptions, is Under the Main Altar of St Peters Basllica. And All Popes St Peter on, wioth years they reigned as Pope are Recorded, readily available.
:coffeeread:

Jesus established the church alright. But its anybody’s guess whether that church is indeed catholic because Peter never officiated any pontificates, neither did Linus. Anybody can quote names and claim themselves related or linked. That’s why there are so many ‘american’ illegal immigrants in USA.

All you need to do is check their credentials instead of just listening to their claims.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

.