Papal infallibility vs apparent errors

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‘I alone despite my unworthiness, am the successor of the Apostles, the Vicar of Jesus Christ: I alone have the mission to guide and direct the barque of Peter; I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.’ - Pope Pius IX.

“outside of her (the Church) there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins” - boniface viii

I’ve been dialoguing with someone about papal infallibility. I’m wondering how to address these 2 (and similar) quotes by popes. I can’t find a source for the first one. Do we attempt to defend what they say? The first one, I assume PPIX is talking in persona christi, but even so, it’s a little unsettling to hear. The second one, I believe can be understood in light of lumen gentium, but that seems like slick recoiling from what boniface viii actually meant. So, do we say they were wrong? Or do we defend them? Or what’s the best way to address quotes like this in general to which protestants claim is our embarrassing past?
 
Fourth Lateran Council: “There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope John Paul II: “Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom ‘extra ecclesiam nulla salus’ - ‘outside the Church there is no salvation’ - stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull ‘Unam Sanctam’ of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical ‘Redemptoris Missio,’ salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. Redemptoris Missio, n. 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a ‘yes’ to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that ‘sine ecclesia nulla salus’ - ‘without the Church there is no salvation.’ Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.”
 
Ask where they got that quote. If the source is not given, or if it is dubious, than ignore their claim.
 
Why not ask the simple question from the opposite side of the fence?

The question is, is it within God’s power to choose to give eternal salvation to one outside the sphere of His Church or not? If it IS, then all those documents must be viewed in light of what is available for man, on earth, without any supernatural going-beyond of the rules given for the ordinary man. In other words, without an act of God, and act of His own choice, this is the only way to salvation.

If the answer is NO, then we’ve just read the mind of God.

Look everywhere for how to travel in less than one day from NY to LA and all you will find is how to book a ticket on a commercial flight. For the ordinary man, that is the only way. Is it POSSIBLE to be standing around the airport and a person with their own plane invite you along for a free trip to LA? Sure it is, but that’s not anyone’s ordinary expectation, so you wouldn’t expect that situation to ever be addressed in literature as “an option.”

So it is with salvation. We shouldn’t expect to find the extraordinary way laid out for us, we should expect to find the ordinary way. That doesn’t mean no extraordinary way exists.
 
The second quote isn’t an error. There is no salvation outside the Church. What Protestants (and some Catholics) do not understand, is that the statement does not mean outside of formal membership there is no salvation. You can find all kinds of quotes throughout the centuries stating outside the Church there is no salvation, but those quotes are not accompanied by an exhaustive list of how one can be joined to the Church, whether formally or by extenuating means. We believe those in invincible ignorance, for example, can be joined to the Church if they follow their conscience as best they can. These people might not even be baptized. (see Catechism 846-848). Such teaching about informal membership in the Church can even be found in Augustine or Aquinas in the 4th/5th century and 13th centuries. It is also evident as far back as the Old Testament when it describes people outside the Jews who have God’s favor.
 
Regarding the first quote, it in no way appears to meet the criteria for when Papal Infallibility can be exercised (as others here have linked to). Furthermore, I was only able to find 2 websites giving that quote from Pius IX. Neither provides a source. The one website is from Ian Paisley, who if you don’t know, is a venomous anti-Catholic.
 
djeter said:
A relatively clear and straightforward explanation of the magisterium and papal infallibility:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/23/understanding-the-magisterium/

regards,

dj
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That site erroneously claims that the ‘sensus fidelium’ is a source of truth, from which the Magisterium teaches, in contradiction to Vatican II, which states that the Magisterium teaches only from Tradition and Scripture (DV, n. 10.).

The first quote of the OP is, as someone else said above, said in persona Christi, because the Pope is the representative of Christ.

The second quote presents an infallible teaching, that outside the Church there is no salvation:

Pope John Paul II: “Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom ‘extra ecclesiam nulla salus’ - ‘outside the Church there is no salvation’ - stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull ‘Unam Sanctam’ of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351).”

It is established as infallible in that it is taught by Sacred Tradition, and by the two Councils cited above.
 
andersonbd1 said:
I alone despite my unworthiness, am the successor of the Apostles, the Vicar of Jesus Christ: I alone have the mission to guide and direct the barque of Peter; I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.’ - Pope Pius IX.
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Anti Catholics come up with this stuff all the time. They perpetuate false witness, from one false witness to another, and when challenged for a proper source referenced properly, they can’t produce the goods. The guy I challenged here (link provided) who quoted the same,said it came from the Guardian. Which only means the Guardian copied a quote that THEY passed on and didn’t substantiate it either. But passed it on just the same. BTW, The guy I challenged never provided the reference. And as you can see from the writings of Pius IX, provided in the link, the quote isn’t there either.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3710061&postcount=479
 
Ron_Conte said:
That site erroneously claims that the ‘sensus fidelium’ is a source of truth, from which the Magisterium teaches, in contradiction to Vatican II, which states that the Magisterium teaches only from Tradition and Scripture (DV, n. 10.).
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You’ve tied together a couple of things there, Ron that I don’t think the site has. Yes the magisterium teaches from Tradition and Scripture and Yes one of the sources of truth in Catholic Theology is ‘sensus fidelium.’

The site says the first here: “the “supreme rule of our Catholic faith” derives from the unity which the Spirit has created between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church in a reciprocity which means that none of the three can survive without the two others.

And says the second here: Sensus fidelium is the “sense of the faithful” and refers to the idea that beliefs, consciences and experiences of the faithful is one of the valid sources of truth in Catholic theology. Its very nature preserves it from fundamental error and is rooted in the promise of Christ to protect his Church (the mystical body of Christ) from error through the guidance of the Spirit.

What the site does NOT say and which you seem to infer is that the magisterium teaches from Tradition and Scripture AND SENSUS FIDELIUM.

Thanks for the feedback though

dj
 
Ron_Conte said:
Actually, Pope Pius IX did say those words, in a speech, not in a papal document, as reported by Le Monde and Observateur Catholique:

books.google.com/books?id=okgQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA285&dq=%22Seul,+malgre+mon+indignite,+je+suis+le+successeur+des%22#v=onepage&q=&f=false

But as I said, he was speaking in persona Christi, as Christ’s representative.
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In reading the whole quote followed by that next sentence, it sounds to me like he says if you part from the vicar of Christ, you part from the way, the truth, and the life? i.e. you part with the Catholic Church, you part from truth. What do you think?
 
DOShea said:
Why not ask the simple question from the opposite side of the fence?

The question is, is it within God’s power to choose to give eternal salvation to one outside the sphere of His Church or not? If it IS, then all those documents must be viewed in light of what is available for man, on earth, without any supernatural going-beyond of the rules given for the ordinary man. In other words, without an act of God, and act of His own choice, this is the only way to salvation.

If the answer is NO, then we’ve just read the mind of God.

Look everywhere for how to travel in less than one day from NY to LA and all you will find is how to book a ticket on a commercial flight. For the ordinary man, that is the only way. Is it POSSIBLE to be standing around the airport and a person with their own plane invite you along for a free trip to LA? Sure it is, but that’s not anyone’s ordinary expectation, so you wouldn’t expect that situation to ever be addressed in literature as “an option.”

So it is with salvation. We shouldn’t expect to find the extraordinary way laid out for us, we should expect to find the ordinary way. That doesn’t mean no extraordinary way exists.
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I like this analogy. One shouldn’t stand around the airport waiting for a free ride. Thanks DOShea.
 
Ron_Conte said:
That site erroneously claims that the ‘sensus fidelium’ is a source of truth, from which the Magisterium teaches, in contradiction to Vatican II, which states that the Magisterium teaches only from Tradition and Scripture (DV, n. 10.).
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Umm… It is my understanding that the Church teaches the fact that the “sensus fidelium” is infallible truth. By “sensus fidelium” is meant the common sense of the faithful. By the word “faithful” is meant those devout and orthodox Catholics who are in complete unity and harmony with the Bishops and the Pope and who strive to live holy lives.

The Catechism says:
The supernatural sense of faith
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/91.htm');

91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/92.htm');

92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55
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93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56
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Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#III
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Many dogmas and doctrines in the Church have begun with the laity, including moral teachings. There is also the Canonization of Saints and many popular devotions which the sensus fidelium is involved. The Sensus Fidelium is the people of God teaching infallibly. It is to be considered part of the Magisterium because it is always to be exercised with the approval of the Bishops and the Pope. This happened for example with the Dogmas of Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary. The faithful were consulted and as Pope Pius XII said just this by itself with the vote of the Bishops was enough to make it infallible. His Ex Cathedra pronouncement was just to codify it, or set it in stone so to speak. But, like the Ten Commandments, its teaching was truth and was binding even before it was written on the stone.
 
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