Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Are there any reliable sources where I can find examples of when a Pope has taught infallibly? I was searching the Vatican website but I do not really know where to look. Thanks and God bless,
ZP
ZP
- Status
S
steve_b
Guest
For example, statements that begin with
“we declare and define that Blessed N., is a saint” (example). This triggers the Church’s gift of infallibility, which Vatican I teaches “the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals” (source).
From:
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/06/two_instances_o.html
D
davidv
Guest
For and example on the Vatican website find this document: papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
Near the end find the section labeled “The Definition”
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
steve b,
Thanks for the information. My next question is this, are all Papal Documents infallible or just some? Are all encyclicals infallible?
Thanks for the information. My next question is this, are all Papal Documents infallible or just some? Are all encyclicals infallible?
T
thessalonian
Guest
The classic and best source is Ludwig Ott’s dogma of Catholicism. It pretty much lists all the papal and councilar statements and their application.
Only the statement expressing a matter of faith and morals expressed in the capacity of the office is considered strictly infallible. (not to confuse it with meaning the rest of the supporting document is suspect). If the statement is in an encyclical the whole encyclical is not considered infallible.
One must also remember that the doctrine of infallibility prevents popes and councils from teaching what is untrue. This is perhaps the greater protection of infallibility. As an example there was a Pope early on who was put in to power by a certain queen. Don’t recall the names offhand. He was placed there so he could teach her favorite heresy. But when he got in to office he found that he could not teach it and so was sent in to exile.
Only the statement expressing a matter of faith and morals expressed in the capacity of the office is considered strictly infallible. (not to confuse it with meaning the rest of the supporting document is suspect). If the statement is in an encyclical the whole encyclical is not considered infallible.
One must also remember that the doctrine of infallibility prevents popes and councils from teaching what is untrue. This is perhaps the greater protection of infallibility. As an example there was a Pope early on who was put in to power by a certain queen. Don’t recall the names offhand. He was placed there so he could teach her favorite heresy. But when he got in to office he found that he could not teach it and so was sent in to exile.
M
Mickey
Guest
Good luck. I have never received a straight answer as to what have been declarations of infallibility. There is much disagreement within Catholicism. Some say there have only been two instances–others say there are many more.
J
jfoges
Guest
Check out a book called Infallibility? An Inquiry by Hans Kung. It was first published around 1971. It will tell you everything you need to know about the problems with papal infallibility from a very credible author.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Ludwig Ott, Dogma of Catholicism is the best answer. The two is the two that were declared since infallibility was declared as dogma. IC and Assumption. But that does not mean there were not other papal statements before that. And Ott tells you what they were. There are around 20.Good luck. I have never received a straight answer as to what have been declarations of infallibility. There is much disagreement within Catholicism. Some say there have only been two instances–others say there are many more.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Hans Kung has been censured. He is not reliable at all.
D
davidv
Guest
Documents cannot be infallible, only teachings. So, some statements recorded in may reflect infallible teaching, but in and of themselve they are not infallible.
I highly recommend that you read the article on infallibility in the Catholic Encylopdia here: oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Infallibility
S
steve_b
Guest
Actually, thanks to Jimmy Akin :tiphat:
Zia:
As I understand it, If you apply those words Jimmy Akin mentioned,
we declare and define that…
Then you have a formula phrase to use to define infallible statements.
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Thanks
So there have been two instances of Papal infallibility since it had been declared. However, I would say that before then there have been many instances of Papal infallibility. When Pope Damasus wrote his decree on Scripture at the Synod of Rome that would be an example of Papal infallibility would it not?
J
jfoges
Guest
Not reliable? So one of the world’s foremost experts on Catholic theology is not reliable? Do you think Kung is a liar?
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Hans Kung remains a Catholic priest in good standing, but the Vatican has rescinded his authority to teach Catholic theology. Why? I do not know.
G
Gene_Church
Guest
I think that Kung does not reliably teach the Catholic faith.
J
Just_Lurking
Guest
What is more important is that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does not think that Kung reliably teaches the Catholic faith.
D
davidv
Guest
There have been more than two instances of infallible declarations since its own declaration. As Steve b indicated above, every declaration of Sainthood is an infallible teaching. I am not familiar with that decree, so I don’t know.Thanks
So there have been two instances of Papal infallibility since it had been declared. However, I would say that before then there have been many instances of Papal infallibility. When Pope Damasus wrote his decree on Scripture at the Synod of Rome that would be an example of Papal infallibility would it not?
T
The_Dude
Guest
You’ll never get a definitive answer on this, which is a point Protestants remind RCs about. Even Dulles in his recent book, Magisterium: Teacher & Guardian of the Faith, says as much, “Except for the definition of the Immaculate Conception, there is little clarity about which papal statements prior to Vatican I are irreformable. Most authors would agree on about half a dozen statements.”
T
tdgesq
Guest
I agree that Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma is a good resource to find examples of when a Pope has taught infallibly. You can also go straight to the definitive infallibility criterion:
we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
Code:
when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when,
1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,It is a good exercise to read Munificentissimus Deus and Ineffabilis Deus and apply the criterion yourself.
To my knowledge, there is no list of infallible papal decrees that have been infallibly acknowledged as such by a Pope. You have recourse to experts in dogmatic theology like Ott to find them or you can read the original texts yourself and apply the infallibility criterion.
S
steve_b
Guest
- Status