Papal Infallibility

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Crusading_Canuk

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To be clear I in no way doubt Papal Infallibility. In order to better understand the dogma and it’s application in Church history I just have a hypothetical scenario to pose to those here;

During His Pontificate, Pope Gelasius I published the Gelasian Decree. In this decree he answered a (rather important) question regarding which books are actually part of the Sacred Scripture. Pope Gelasius I was speaking Ex Cathedra and canonized the Bible to be used (with the same Books, Gospels and Epistles we use to this day) until the end of time.

Here is where the hypothetical part comes in; Would it be possible for a future Pope to either add or take away books from the Bible? Why or why not?
 
The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913):
“For a long time the fixing of the Canon of the Scriptures was attributed to Gelasius, but it seems now more probably the work of Damasus (367-85). As Gelasius, however, in a Roman synod (494), published his celebrated catalogue of the authentic writings of the Fathers, together with a list of apocryphal and interpolated works, as well as the proscribed books of the heretics (Ep. xlii), it was but natural to prefix to this catalogue the Canon of the Scriptures as determined by the earlier Pontiff, and thus in the course of time the Canon itself came to be ascribed to Gelasius.”
newadvent.org/cathen/06406a.htm
Crusading Canuk
Would it be possible for a future Pope to either add or take away books from the Bible? Why or why not?
No, because the Councils cited had defined the books to be included, and this was canonised at Trent.

The infallibility of papal definitions on faith and morals was declared in a dogma in Pastor Aeternus of Vatican I. Ecumenical Councils can define infallible statements when approved by the Pope, such as at Vatican I.
 
Ok attributed to the wrong Pope, but still such a document or perhaps one that uses language binding something “until the end of time” would be considered infallible correct (provided the Pope was speaking Ex Cathedra)?
 
Ok, I’ll come out with it. The reason I’m asking this in the first place is because I’m unsure of how to view the Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum. I’ll include a link to it, and my question is do those here consider it infallible and thus binding for us as Catholics to believe and uphold?

fisheaters.com/quoprimum.html
 
Ok, I’ll come out with it. The reason I’m asking this in the first place is because I’m unsure of how to view the Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum. I’ll include a link to it, and my question is do those here consider it infallible and thus binding for us as Catholics to believe and uphold?

fisheaters.com/quoprimum.html
The subject is not faith and morals, but practice, and as such it is a disciplinary decree. Disciplines of the church are, of course, to be followed but may be rescinded or superceded at a later time as well.
 
The subject is not faith and morals, but practice, and as such it is a disciplinary decree. Disciplines of the church are, of course, to be followed but may be rescinded or superceded at a later time as well.
“Now therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than that of this Missal published by Us… no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree and prohibition. Should any person venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”

Following the principal of “lex orandi, lex credendi” the “law of prayer affects the law of belief”, would this not be a matter of Faith?
 
“Now therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than that of this Missal published by Us… no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree and prohibition. Should any person venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”

Following the principal of “lex orandi, lex credendi” the “law of prayer affects the law of belief”, would this not be a matter of Faith?
Hi,

If this is not a matter concerning faith and morals, but only religious practice, then it fails to meet the criteria defined in the First Vatican Council for the Pope’s infallible magisterium. If the Pope does not in some way invoke his supreme Apostolic authority, then it also fails. If the Pope does not bind this upon the universal Church, then it also fails. If the Pope does not give this from his office of shepherd and teacher of all Christians, then it also fails to meet the criteria.

Since at least three of the criteria are not met in Quo Primum (by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority; he defines a doctrine concerning faith and morals; to be held by the whole Church) the statement can’t possible be ex Cathedra. If you read the document carefully, the Pope never barrs the use of traditional orders of the Mass with a history of 200 years practice or more, nor does he bind the eastern rites to this Order. Also, he specifically states that his Constitution shall have the “force of law in perpetuity.” That is, it is a Church Law, which unless a future Pope shall supercede in some way, remains in perpetuity.

In matters of Church Law, one Pope binds another like a single man who decides to hold his hands together. The hands only remain together for as long as the man wills it. When he decides to let his hands go, he is no longer binding himself. That’s not the same for his subjects, however, we are bound until he tells us that we are no longer bound.

However, my concern would be what is given us by the Council of Trent, Session 22, concerning the Mass of Pope St. Pius V:
And whereas it beseemeth, that holy things be administered in a holy manner, and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy; to the end that it might be worthily and reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted, many years ago, the sacred Canon, so pure from every error, that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree savour of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. For it is composed, out of the very words of the Lord, the traditions of the Apostles, and the pious institutions also of Holy Pontiffs.
I would say it’d be a pretty tall order, in some way, to “out-do” the sacred Canon which is pure from every error and contains nothing “which does not in the highest degree savour of a certain holiness and piety,” by that which is new and untested.

Also, the “lex orandi, lex credendi,” (the law of prayer, [is] the law of belief) statement, to my knowledge, is in reference to a personal law or checkpoint at which the individual “checks” himself for orthodoxy; he “checks” how he believes BY how he prays.

That’s merely my two cents, though.

– Nicole
 
Very good reading.

What if a document were discovered that was a previously unknown letter written by an Apostle. Suppose the letter contained a small amount of teaching. Teaching that would carry the authority of an Apostle? Would it be considered a part of the public revelation? Could it be included in the canon?
 
If any such document was found and was shown to authentic and not a later forgery - then it should be included in Church canon.

The Church cannot merely choose to hide certain documents just because it has closed off biblical canon in the past.
 
If any such document was found and was shown to authentic and not a later forgery - then it should be included in Church canon.

The Church cannot merely choose to hide certain documents just because it has closed off biblical canon in the past.
That seems correct but sometimes the solution to these kind of things is counterintuitive.
 
Benadam
What if a document were discovered that was a previously unknown letter written by an Apostle. Suppose the letter contained a small amount of teaching. Teaching that would carry the authority of an Apostle? Would it be considered a part of the public revelation? Could it be included in the canon?
The answer below by Fr John Echert covers this sort of speculation – it can be ruled out.

The Canon of Scripture
Question on 02-19-2008:

If union between Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy were to happen, agreement would need to be reached on the canonicity of 3 Maccabees, 3rd and 4th Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh.
Considering that the magisterium has neither explicitly affirmed, nor rejected, their scriptural value, could the Catholic Church theoretically formally add them to the Catholic canon?

The lectionary of the Byzantine rite of the Catholic Church includes them.

**Answer by Fr. John Echert (EWTN) on 03-07-2008: **
No, for the fact that the Bible is public revelation and it is unthinkable that the Church would be deprived of what was intended to be universal for the first two-thousand years (including the most critical years of the Apostolic Period).
Thanks, John
Father Echert
 
The answer below by Fr John Echert covers this sort of speculation – it can be ruled out.

The Canon of Scripture
Question on 02-19-2008:

If union between Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy were to happen, agreement would need to be reached on the canonicity of 3 Maccabees, 3rd and 4th Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh.
Considering that the magisterium has neither explicitly affirmed, nor rejected, their scriptural value, could the Catholic Church theoretically formally add them to the Catholic canon?

The lectionary of the Byzantine rite of the Catholic Church includes them.

**Answer by Fr. John Echert (EWTN) on 03-07-2008: **
No, for the fact that the Bible is public revelation and it is unthinkable that the Church would be deprived of what was intended to be universal for the first two-thousand years (including the most critical years of the Apostolic Period).
Thanks, John
Father Echert
That makes sense. Thanks! 👍
 
Well, I think how is demonstrated by the fact that the answer you posted was not correct and the implication that it was an answer you intuited
Yes, I don’t like that answer as it assumes that the Church always gets everything right despite a new source of authentic revelation turning up.
 
Yes, I don’t like that answer as it assumes that the Church always gets everything right despite a new source of authentic revelation turning up.
I think it boils down to the time in history. I can see not giving it the authority of public revelation and so not canonizing it. OTOH lacking inclusion to the canon I would think it would create by it’s presence it’s own category of authority.In time it would become a part of the canon in the mind of the faithfull and then maybe it’s universal acceptance would be recognized as asign of it’s inclusion.🤷
 
razredge
it assumes that the Church always gets everything right despite a new source of authentic revelation turning up.
Christ is the Son of God and His Church’s infallible doctrine and dogma contain no error.

As post #11 explains there is no possibility of a new revelation which is closed with Christ who gave His Church the fullness of truth, and with the Holy Spirit brought to Her
everything He declared.
 
If any such document was found and was shown to authentic and not a later forgery - then it should be included in Church canon.
How in the world could it be proved. There are “scholars” who already challenge the authenticity of the given authors of canonized books of the Bible - where the traditional authorship has the support of references to it in other early writings.
The Church cannot merely choose to hide certain documents just because it has closed off biblical canon in the past.
The Church (Magisterium) most certainly can choose what to include in the biblical canon. She is the **only one **who can – she is the only one that has been given the authority to bind and loose for the Church.
BTW, not including a writing in Sacred Scripture does not equal “hiding” it. There are writings already out there claiming apostolic authorship (Gospel of Thomas, …) which the Church chose not to include, but certainly never hid or destroyed.

Hypothetically, even if apostolic authorship could be proved, I would tend to think there was some reason God did not want it included in the canonized New Testament.
 
How in the world could it be proved. There are “scholars” who already challenge the authenticity of the given authors of canonized books of the Bible - where the traditional authorship has the support of references to it in other early writings.
That is a separate question - if it can be proved to be authentic, beyond reasonable doubt - say all Bible scholars agrees that it is. Say the Church itself agrees that it is authentic - then it should be allowed to change canon to encompass the new text.
The Church (Magisterium) most certainly can choose what to include in the biblical canon. She is the **only one **who can – she is the only one that has been given the authority to bind and loose for the Church.
Binding and loosing refers to forgiveness of sins, it does not mean the power to reject authentic teachings of Christ.
 
That is a separate question - if it can be proved to be authentic, beyond reasonable doubt - say all Bible scholars agrees that it is. Say the Church itself agrees that it is authentic - then it should be allowed to change canon to encompass the new text.
And the Church can decide not to allow changes in the canon in order to encompass the new text. The Church Magisterium decides what is allowed; not us.
Binding and loosing refers to forgiveness of sins,
It refers to the power to govern and oversee the Church in all aspects.
Actually the “binding and loosing” verses (Mt. 16 - overall power to Peter; and Mt 18 - power to apostles to excommunicate) do not mention the forgiving of sins. The granting of power to forgive sins was given after the resurrection - and the language is very explicit and does not contain the words “binding and loosing”.
John 20:22-23 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
it does not mean the power to reject authentic teachings of Christ
Not including them in the canon would not mean they are rejecting what is taught in the “authentic” writing. The Church has never rejected the authentic teachings of Christ - whether they were written or oral - whether they were included in the canonized Scriptures or not.
 
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