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Isaiah45_9
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Do you have or donāt have canon law that contradicts the canon I have posted?Maybe I can give it a try
Really simple people.
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Really simple people.
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rcwitness
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No. Sorry to disappoint. I dont think canon law would contradict itself.
I only offer Scripture. And I think it speaks volumes when Jesus appointed Peter before and seperately than the other Apostles. They cannot usurp Peter, when he Teaches to the whole Church. They cannot excommunicate him, without voluntary consent. They cannot undue what he has bound with intent for the universal Church.
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Isaiah45_9
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That was all the question needed to be answered.
Why would you disappoint?
Then you now need to defend the city and not the person, as any successor of Peter is therefore given this charisma.
It was already shown, in a now closed thread, that there were no such exceptions in the Church for over 1,400ās years.
Your choice of word, usurp, is a bit out of context.
How did the Papal Schism worked itself out? Does current canon law provide for a remedy, should a similar crisis arise?
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istilllookup
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Infalibility of the church? Iāve read a lot of this discussion and as a lifelong catholic who prefers the term christian as a result of many historical as ell as dogmatic questions including infalability. These are some historical events considered falible in the eyes of many biblical teachings. THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL. EXPLAIN THE CRUSADES THE SYSTEMATIC DESTRUCTION AND DESTRUCTION OR THEFT OF RESOURSE FOR SELF GAIN IN THE PROCESS OF PILLAGING OTHERS FOR SEPERATE BELIEFS. infallible? THE PEDAFILLIA IN SO MANY DOCUMENTED AND TRIED CASES ITS APPAULING AND THE CHURCHES CONTINUED EMPLOYMENT OF SOME OF THESE PEOPLE. Infallible? IF I TOLD YOU I WAS PERFECT BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME TO SIT IN THIS CHAIR YOUāD HAVE ME IN A PADDED ROOM. NUETRAL STANCE OF THE HOLLICOST WHERE AS DOGMA STATES THAT GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE WERE BEING SYTEMATICALLY MURDERED IN BY THE THOUSANDS FOR HATE MONGERING SCAPE GOATING PROPAGANDA IN A FAILING ECONOMY THAT NEW WAR WOULD CREATE OPPORTUNITY FOR OUTSIDE RESOURSES AS WELL AS ECONOMY STIMULUS OF WAR MACHINE PRODUCTION. Infallible ? THESE ARE LESS THEN PERFECT DESCISSIONS. IF JESUS COULD ARGUE WITH PRIESTS AT AGE 12 THEN Y CANNOT I POSE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS OF MY PERSCEPRIONS OF THE BOOK OF JOB? A PERFECT MAN GODS ADMITTED BEST SERVANT MOST RIGHTEOUS QUOTE PERFECT IN ALL HIS WAYS WAS HANDED STRAIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF SATAN FOR FORTY CHAPTERS PLUS OF BRUTAL TORTURE IN ANY CONCIEVABLE WAY TO ETERNAL ENEMY FOR WHAT? BECAUSE GOD N SATAN WANTED TO SEE IF JOB WOULD TURN FROM GOD. now Iām no where near perfect i struggle in my faith yet KNOW HE IS THERE. BUSO THAT BOOK BROKE MY HEARY TROUBLES MY SOUL AND TAXES MY FAITH THAT GOD HIMSELF WOULD DO THAT. I AM A SINNER AND A BELIEVER AND IF GOD COULD DO THAT TO A PERFECT MAN THEN AS HE BEGS I AM MORE AFRAID OF GODS TURNING FROM ME THEN HELL YET I BELIEVE THAT WAS NOT AN INFALLIBLE ACTION AND THE BENEFIT OF PUTTING HIM THROUGH IT IS LOST ON ME YOU CANāT SELL A BREAK N REBUILD STORY TO IMPROVE UPON PERFECTION IN GODS MOST RIGHTEOUS FOLLOWER. IF JESUS CHRIST THE KING THE OTHER PERFECT MAN CAN LOOK UP TO HIS OWN FATHER AND SCREAM BEFORE WEEPING Y HAST THOUGH FORSAKEN ME THEN WHAT PIT OF HELL AWAITS MY SIN OF IMPERFECTION? I LOVE JESUS I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH HIM BUT MANY QUESTIONS FOR GOD THE CHURCH AND ALL OUR PEOPLE HERE WORSHIPPING THE SAME GODā¦
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istilllookup
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Not infallible. Was the church jesus attended to righteously and rightfully flip the money changing infallible? Were the pharasise infallible? There are three people i know the bible to say is perfect. Mother mary may she guide us all. Jesus christ in all his glory may he save us all cause iām still watchn many goodens falln down. And job gods most righteous of old may he have got his licks n satan back when it was said n done. That is it. I. T. ā¦dot. Unless i am wrong or leaving someone out.
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istilllookup
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I want to be wrong. Please prove me wrong.
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steve_b
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As the definition for papal infallibility states, on the following post ( #12 ), Infallibility in matters of faith and morals (only), is a protection from teaching error, that is given by God for His Church and in particular the pope, when he defines a doctrine or dogma to be believed by everyone.
So hereās the challange.
List, with references, where the pope defined a doctrine or dogma, (on a matter of faith or morals) to be believed by the whole Church, that ended up being an error
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truetofaith
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The Pope is infallible in proclamations in matters of faith & morals.
That doesnāt mean Catholics, priests etc. do not commit sin !
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Abu
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The evidence of a papal final decision, subject to no Ecumenical Council bishops:
In *A Catechism Of The Catholic Church *by Fr Robert J Fox, Franciscan Herald Press, 1979, on the Council of Constance, 1414-1418, Fr Fox records that ā One decree, passed in the earlier stages of the council, asserted the superiority of an ecumenical council over the pope; this was later rejected.ā (p 246).
This is recorded here also: āSixteenth Ecumenical Council ā Constance: 1414 -1418
Pope Martin ratified the council ā¦except the decrees which proposed conciliarism.ā
The Council of Constance is recognised by the Catholic Church as the 16th Ecumenical Council ā its valid decrees were approved by Pope Martin V, and the decree purporting to make a pope obey a Council was struck down (the thesis of Gallicanism ā see note 6 of The Gift of Infallibility, Fr James T OāConnor, Ignatius, 2008, p 25-6).
False, as it is not merely ālike disciplinesā, and encompasses the threefold office of the Church in teaching, sanctifying and ruling. Canons 749, and 750, on the Teaching Office of the Church exemplify this reality. This teaching office has been divinely revealed by Christ Himself.
Since the reality of the teaching has been diminished (belittled), Isaiah45_9 has achieved that by ignoring or concealing the facts above.
ā*The Catechism of the Catholic Church *is similarly definitive in this regard. Citing Vatican IIās Lumen Gentium 22, which traces the unhindered and universal teaching authority of the Roman pontiff through the ecclesiastical history of Eusebius back to apostolic times as relayed in Matthewās Gospel, āthere is never an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peterās successor.ā ā
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/DISSIDEN.TXT
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phil19034
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Iām afraid that you ignored the 2nd part of my post. I said that Christ and The Holy Spirit protect the Church from a possible bad Pope.
If a Pope were to change doctrine or dogma, The Holy Spirit will stop him, and by death if needed.
The Cardinals make sure a people is educated. But The Holy Spirit protects the Church from false doctrine and false dogma.
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Abu
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Where you are wrong is in not understanding the reality that Christās Catholic Church is as Christ teaches through His Magisterium ā the Church is āheld, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holyā [Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium, art 39], and this despite Her personally fallible members.
The Catholic Church teaches faith and morals, sanctification and salvation. Because of the failure of some of Her members the Pope has apologized and it is time to recognise the reality:
Any āpersecutionā comes from human frailty not from His Church. In First Things (November 1997), Harvard Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon wrote that āthe Pope himself has acknowledged the mistakes and sins of Christians in connection with, among other things, the Crusades, the Inquisition, persecution of the Jews, religious wars, Galileo, and the treatment of women. Thus, though the Pope himself is careful to speak of sin or error on the part of the Churchās members or representatives, rather than the Church in its fullness, that important theological distinction is almost always lost in the transmission.ā
Instead of ridiculing the Churchās teaching, it is time to learn what Her teaching really is so that you can support Her with confidence and be true to Christ.
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phil19034
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The Pope sins tooā¦ thatās why the Pope goes to confession.
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istilllookup
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I took the topic out of context for that i do apologise though i feel i may have some validated points my questions were misconstrued into this conversation. the quote to doubt is the greatest insult to the devine. i do like that even if i believe in questioning everything in seeks to continue to learn even if incramentally as well as try to present alternate perspectives to others to deversify thiers even if by posing a question to god himself how could i know if not asked. Thank you for the proper defanition of papal infallibility as well as the challenge presented. i decline i trust your points are valid and accurate as you seem to know a great deal of the topic and your well studied yet i do feel my points were valid and also appreciate the answer of that though though a key member or members of the church are infallible in doctrine and matters of moral code that theyāre still capable of sin. many questions still remain yet i have learned something here. i would not research a point thatās aside from the answers i seek i do admit would take me a long time and probably to no avail for the sole purpose of debate merely seek redirecting my questions and stumbling faith in a more suitable situation. I do have many questions of the bible and faith of the catholic church and many a few other religions. i appreciate the clarifications and tollerance of my ignorance to the main principle of the topic. i mistook infallibility as perfection in entirety and do not believe total perfection of humans is possible but being correct in doctrine and moral code is something far more believable. truth be told i usually keep my relationship with god and my questions for him between him and i. and mostly just read the bible and pray. much a daniel did in solice yet for different reasonsā¦ thank you again. much unanswered but all the clarifacation for the topic at hand was given and thatās more than i could expect. have a good evening thank u for the time education as well as patience.
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istilllookup
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Thank you also phil. its being taken into consideration. i do love jesus and his teachings as well as many of churches teachings yet there are some very hard pills to swallow as anyone seeking any sort of greater good. some things are just inexcusable when you get past justifications. i do love christianity and the teachings of jesus christ and know he god and the holy spirit to be very real i refuse to justify the sins forementioned nor stand next to anyone who would. i am still christian as i believe in jesus his works and eternal life. My own sin in my own life chews my soul and Iām not cabable of things half as bad as the forementioned. but know y the church must continue to seek and strive for good of god jesus heaven her congragations communities and peoples among them yet i cannot be counted amongst them and not as a result of just my limited education. i will still pray i will still try to do good and right wherever i may be n almost always seek positive redirection. but its going to take a long time. main point thoughā¦thank u.
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Jelway
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Just saw this thread and have a question. Did Pope Francis elude to the face he might make mistakes or am I mistaken in that thought??? My question is if he did say or insinuate this how would that affect Papal Infallibility?
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rcwitness
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:yup:
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rcwitness
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Because I do wish I could address your concerns more accurately and direct with references to canon law and councils. I hope to eventually grow in the knowledge of these areas.
Perhaps. A different topic, however.
from Merriamā¦
: to seize or exercise authority or possession wrongfully
Examples of USURP
Some people have accused city council members of trying to usurp the mayorās power.
attempting to usurp the throne
The Church must determine who is her Pope. There is no doubt about that. It is her who selects the person to that office. I have no doubt the Church would be able to resolve, or avoid all together (which is realistically likely) a Papal Schism today through canon law.
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Abu
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Every Pope is infallible, incapable of teaching error, only when teaching the whole Church on faith or morals when he judges and defines what is to be believed or rejected by all the faithful.
The three levels of papal teaching are as shown in post #9.
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Jelway
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Thanks but you never really answered my question. If our current Pope suggests he is not perfect (Did he or am I wrong) how is he at the same time infallible. Pope Francis just doesnāt strike me as someone who would declare he is infallible.
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Abu
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Any Pope can be, and most probably has been, wrong on some issue in his interviews or general statements.
No one is perfect except Jesus of Nazareth and His Mother.
A Pope is infallible ONLY in declaring a dogma or a doctrine to be held by the whole Church on faith and morals.
No Pope is impeccable ā preserved from sin. āIn apostolic times, St Peter was infallible in the exercise of his office. But unlike the Blessed Virgin, he was not impeccable, although it is commonly held that all the apostles were confirmed in grace on the day of Pentecost and thus preserved from losing the friendship of God.ā The Catholic Catechism, Fr John a Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 224].
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