Papal Infallibility

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I agree that Popes have often cited the ‘authority’ of St. Peter, but isn’t this different from an ex-Catheda statement - because the Popes cited their authority quite a lot. I though ‘ex catheda’ statements to be quite rare.
The Pope’s official infallibility stems from the authority of the Church, vested in him by Christ; ex cathedra statements are only one facet of the same thing. I was showing that this authority goes back FAR into Church history, and has shaped it since the beginning.

Peace and God bless!
 
To not believe in infallibility is to not believe in God.

Since Jesus said He is the truth and we can know truth then truth matters, exists and is knowable.

An infallible fact is that 2+2=4, at that moment I am pronouncing an infallible fact mathematically. (the only way out is the common dodge which some people use to try and weasel out by misinterpreting the infallible fact deliberately)
This just shows dishonesty and a desire not to have truth that is necessary to conform to.

In the same way I can say I believe that Jesus is God that says nothing of the infallible fact that Jesus is God but just my opinion.
In order to truly call yourself Christian you cannot base your faith on opinion but on infallible fact.

To say otherwise is to base a religious system on what people believe you should believe which puts man as the definer of God’s truth.

To believe in an infallible fact is to submit to God’s truth and follow God as opposed to mere opinion.

This is why infallibility is necessary to the Christian faith and needed to be defined as people keep trying to define Christian belief based upon opinion and not fact.

What true Christians need to ask themselves is, is truth necessary for salvation or can we just believe opinion*?
(*believe whatever we want)

In Christ
Scylla
 
“It is beyond question that he [the pope] can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman Pontiffs were heretics.” --Pope Adrian VI, 1523
acts1711.com/heretics.htm
"Ghosty:
Conditions for Infallibility:
  1. The Pope must be speaking ex cathedra—from his position as supreme and universal pastor. Not as a private theologian, bishop of Rome, sovereign of Vatican City, etc.
  2. He must be defining a doctrine—not just commenting, explaining, exhorting, or discussing. It is a final and definitive judgment on a particular issue or subject.
  3. The doctrine must concern faith or morals. It can concern both revealed doctrine (e.g. Perpetual Virginity of Mary) and Natural Law (e.g. abortion).
  4. It must be addressed to the whole Church, not just a segment of her.
Sounds like it was a letter “commenting” on Sergius’ thesis.
He was condemned for what he supported as doctrine.
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Ghosty:
Was this letter addressed to the whole Church?
The letter was certainly examined by the whole church.
The Pope’s official infallibility stems from the authority of the Church, vested in him by Christ; ex cathedra statements are only one facet of the same thing. I was showing that this authority goes back FAR into Church history, and has shaped it since the beginning.

Peace and God bless!
Odd, I always thought that the belief in the Pope’s infallibility stems from the authority of Christ, not the church.

Pope John XXII in 1324 argued against the infallible doctrinal decisions of his predecessor.
To justify contradicting another pope, John produced his Bull Qui quorundam (1324), a dogmatic assertion of doctrine made to the entire Church and thus infallible by today’s rules. In it John XXII reviled the doctrine of papal infallibility as “the work of the devil”
wayoflife.org/fbns/beast09.htm

This is the same pope who declared in Cum inter nonnullos (1323) that the Apostles all had great wealth.
 
To not believe in infallibility is to not believe in God.
You’ve convinced me!
Since Jesus said He is the truth and we can know truth then truth matters, exists and is knowable.

An infallible fact is that 2+2=4, at that moment I am pronouncing an infallible fact mathematically. (the only way out is the common dodge which some people use to try and weasel out by misinterpreting the infallible fact deliberately)
This just shows dishonesty and a desire not to have truth that is necessary to conform to.

In the same way I can say I believe that Jesus is God that says nothing of the infallible fact that Jesus is God but just my opinion.
In order to truly call yourself Christian you cannot base your faith on opinion but on infallible fact.

To say otherwise is to base a religious system on what people believe you should believe which puts man as the definer of God’s truth.

To believe in an infallible fact is to submit to God’s truth and follow God as opposed to mere opinion.

This is why infallibility is necessary to the Christian faith and needed to be defined as people keep trying to define Christian belief based upon opinion and not fact.

What true Christians need to ask themselves is, is truth necessary for salvation or can we just believe opinion*?
(*believe whatever we want)

In Christ
Scylla
Only problem…
I don’t deny ‘infallibility’

I deny it being given solely to one man. It is in truth that all men can err. I believe that the church as a whole is infallible.

Have a look at the arguments made aginst this innovation at the 1870 Council…

john3-16.connectfree.co.uk/pope.html

It makes mention of one pope I’ve mentioned a bit here for various reasons…
“John XXII (1319), who denied the immortality of the soul, and was deposed by the holy Ecumenical Council of Constance”
 
Dear Montalban,

You keep neglecting a very important facet of the dogma of infallibility - it must be directed to the WHOLE CHURCH as a teaching to be believed BY THE WHOLE CHURCH. Absolutely none of the instances you have proffered meets this criteria.

The Bull of Pope John XXII, a DOGMATIC assertion of DOCTRINE? Hardly. It was a statement about whether or not Christ and the Apostles lived in poverty. True, John XXII stated that such a view was heretical, but it was not on doctrinal grounds. Rather, it was his way of punishing the Franciscans. It is strange that you would regard the issue of whether Christ and the Apostles lived in poverty as a matter that would affect our salvation. If you understood that it does not, you would have no basis for your argument that the John XXII was teaching on a matter of Faith or morals.

Regarding Pope Honorius. Judging from your statements, I gather you have never read Pope Honorius’ letter. There are two things for you to consider. 1) The letter was not a public teaching directed to the Church as a whole. In fact, the Sixth Council was not even aware of Honorius’ position, nor his letter to Serguis, until Sergius produced it during his trial and tried to appeal to it to support his position. Can you explain, Montalban, how it is that if Pope Honorius actually taught monothelitism publicly (as you have adjudged from what seems to be your incomplete reading of the circumstances surrounding the issue), that the Council was not even aware that Pope Honorius held a view that Servius could misinterpret as supporting his own until Sergius produced his private letter from Honorius?
2) The Catholic Church has never believed that anathemas on PERSONS even when decreed by ecumenical councils is an infallbile matter. Why? Because anathemas are DISCIPLINARY prescriptions that may be REVOKED. I am sure you do not believe that infallible decrees are revocable, do you? So the Council could very well have erred in declaring Honorius a heretic (at least if we understand “heretic” by TODAY’s standards.

Finally, Ghosty was perfectly correct in his statement that the infallibility of the Pope stems from the infallibility of the Church. You must have a thoroughly Catholic mentality in order to truly accept the orthodoxy of that statement. You need to understand that infallibility is neither actually the Pope’s nor the Church’s - it is GOD’S. By the grace of God, the Church and the Pope SHARES in this infallibility. The infallibility of the Pope stems from the infallibility of the Church not in the sense that it has its origin in the Church - because infallibility is not the Church’s to give, it is God’s - but in the sense that the Pope is an indispensable member of the Church as her visible head, as all bishops are heads of their particular flocks. Another way to say it is that the infallibility of the Pope is, one and the same, the infallibility of the Church - i.e., the infallibility of God.

I hope this has given you some food for thought.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
We have to be careful to the condition of infallibily. But, even if something is not infallibile, there has to be our adsense.
(Sorry for my english…!!!) 🙂
 
You’ve convinced me!

Only problem…
I don’t deny ‘infallibility’

I deny it being given solely to one man. It is in truth that all men can err. I believe that the church as a whole is infallible.
But, if the Church is infallible, then the highest authority that can be appealed to in the Church for the final answer must be infallible.
Have a look at the arguments made aginst this innovation at the 1870 Council…

john3-16.connectfree.co.uk/pope.html

It makes mention of one pope I’ve mentioned a bit here for various reasons…
“John XXII (1319), who denied the immortality of the soul, and was deposed by the holy Ecumenical Council of Constance”
First of all, that council was the robber council from some rogue bishops without the pope which affirmed the heresy of concillarism–the Ecumenical Council of Constance was in 1414-1418 and condemned concillarism.

That’s also great example of infallibility. John XXII never issued a final dogmatic definition concering it. So due to the debate he raised, his successor Benedict XII did give an infallbile definitive proclamation, putting an end to any debate–see here:

Benedictus Deus (On the Beatific Vision of God)1336
 
It also bears pointing out the the Eastern Orthodox approved of Papal authority in two reunion councils–the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons in 1274 and the Ecumenical Council of Florence in 1439. 🙂
 
This is the same pope who declared in Cum inter nonnullos (1323) that the Apostles all had great wealth.
Dude, you really need to stop relying on anti-Catholic websites and rather you should look at the primary documents. See here:

Quum inter nonnullos**: **Against the heresy of absolute poverty November 12, 1323 A. D
 
But, if the Church is infallible, then the highest authority that can be appealed to in the Church for the final answer must be infallible.
Right, or else we’re left in the same tenuous position as the “Bible Only” Protestants who end up with nothing agreed upon as to what is definitive for Christian belief and practice - a Body without a Head. It becomes a free-for-all that will continue to divide the Church under the guidance of the spirit of schism.
 
It also bears pointing out the the Eastern Orthodox approved of Papal authority in two reunion councils–the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons in 1274 and the Ecumenical Council of Florence in 1439. 🙂
Well they couldn’t very well deny it in Council without anathemizing folks like St. Maximos the Confessor (who’s writings on the matter could make the ultra-Montanists blush). 😛

Montalban wrote:
The letter was certainly examined by the whole church.
That doesn’t matter one whit in terms of Papal Infallibility, however. As Mardukm pointed out, the Church wasn’t even aware of the existance of the letter in question. That automatically takes it out of the running with regards to Papal Infallibility, since it wasn’t addressed to the whole Church, but privately to another Patriarch regarding a theological dispute, not unlike the Tome of Leo. In the case of the Tome, it was approved, and in the case of Honorius’ letter it was condemned (although those in the know at the time, including St. Maximos the Confessor, insisted that it was due to Honorius utter failure to condemn the heresy and understand what was going on, not because he held to a heretical idea of Monothelitism. In fact, from Honorius work it’s clear that he completely missed the point of Monothelitism, and was speaking of “will” in a totally different manner, namely the Pauline manner in which the “body” and “soul” are divided in will against eachother).
Odd, I always thought that the belief in the Pope’s infallibility stems from the authority of Christ, not the church.
Perhaps you didn’t read what I said carefully, or perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I said it stems from the infallibility of the Church, and is vested in the Pope by Christ. As Mardukm pointed out, there is only one infallibility, and it is promised to the Church as a whole, and exercised by the Pope, by Councils, and even by constant Tradition. Papal Infallibility addresses it only as exercised by the Pope. This is made clear by the definition of Papal Infallibility as laid out by Vatican I:
We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
It’s the infallibility of the Church, as exercised specially by the successor of Peter. Just because the ex cathedra decisions don’t require the affirmation of the Church in order to be true, this doesn’t mean it’s not the Church’s infallibility. The reason that it can’t be based on “Church ratification” is because that then raises the question of “who is the Church”, which can not be answered without a single, unmovable reference point that can speak for itself. Christ, knowing this, set Peter aside with the task of “strengthening the brethren”, praying specifically for him that his Faith would not fail, and there is almost shocking unanimity among the Fathers that the See of Rome inherited the special prerogatives of Peter (whatever they may be, though I’d argue that Christ here makes it pretty clear), even over the See of Antioch.

There is nothing on Heaven or Earth more powerful than the prayer of Christ, so I’ll stick with His prayers 😉

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear Montalban,

You keep neglecting a very important facet of the dogma of infallibility - it must be directed to the WHOLE CHURCH as a teaching to be believed BY THE WHOLE CHURCH. Absolutely none of the instances you have proffered meets this criteria.

The Bull of Pope John XXII, a DOGMATIC assertion of DOCTRINE? Hardly. It was a statement about whether or not Christ and the Apostles lived in poverty. True, John XXII stated that such a view was heretical, but it was not on doctrinal grounds. Rather, it was his way of punishing the Franciscans. It is strange that you would regard the issue of whether Christ and the Apostles lived in poverty as a matter that would affect our salvation. If you understood that it does not, you would have no basis for your argument that the John XXII was teaching on a matter of Faith or morals.
No, not quite! He came out and ruled against a ruling of a previous pope on the issue of poverty. Your conveniently omitting that. It wasn’t a case of a Pope -v- Franciscans but a Pope -v- a previous Pope who’d ruled in favour of the Franciscan idea of poverty
Regarding Pope Honorius. Judging from your statements, I gather you have never read Pope Honorius’ letter. There are two things for you to consider. 1) The letter was not a public teaching directed to the Church as a whole. In fact, the Sixth Council was not even aware of Honorius’ position, nor his letter to Serguis, until Sergius produced it during his trial and tried to appeal to it to support his position. Can you explain, Montalban, how it is that if Pope Honorius actually taught monothelitism publicly (as you have adjudged from what seems to be your incomplete reading of the circumstances surrounding the issue), that the Council was not even aware that Pope Honorius held a view that Servius could misinterpret as supporting his own until Sergius produced his private letter from Honorius?
I’ve already stated the wording of their condemnation. You seem to think that they were condemning him for a private opinion.
  1. The Catholic Church has never believed that anathemas on PERSONS even when decreed by ecumenical councils is an infallbile matter. Why? Because anathemas are DISCIPLINARY prescriptions that may be REVOKED. I am sure you do not believe that infallible decrees are revocable, do you? So the Council could very well have erred in declaring Honorius a heretic (at least if we understand “heretic” by TODAY’s standards.
Are you saying that they were wrong to condemn Honorius? What then is your point is saying this?
If the Pope approved of that council as ecumenical, then is it not infallible as per your own catechism?
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/891.htm
Any condemnation of anyone on a matter of doctrine would be infallible.
This will make it more clear
“That an ecumenical council which satisfies the conditions above stated is an organ of infallibility will not be denied by anyone who admits that the Church is endowed with infallible doctrinal authority.”
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB
I agree that the whole church is infallible as promised by Christ, however you add that this extends to some kind of special status for only one man, or the church as a whole in relation to that one man.
 
Finally, Ghosty was perfectly correct in his statement that the infallibility of the Pope stems from the infallibility of the Church. You must have a thoroughly Catholic mentality in order to truly accept the orthodoxy of that statement. You need to understand that infallibility is neither actually the Pope’s nor the Church’s - it is GOD’S. By the grace of God, the Church and the Pope SHARES in this infallibility. The infallibility of the Pope stems from the infallibility of the Church not in the sense that it has its origin in the Church - because infallibility is not the Church’s to give, it is God’s - but in the sense that the Pope is an indispensable member of the Church as her visible head, as all bishops are heads of their particular flocks. Another way to say it is that the infallibility of the Pope is, one and the same, the infallibility of the Church - i.e., the infallibility of God.
Nice to ignore that this is excepting that only the Pope can speak ex cathedra.
2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2051.htm
Even in it’s extension to others, it’s directly linked to the ‘Magisterium’

In short you’ve misrepresented John’s condemnation by ignoring that it was directed against a previous pope. The Franciscans argued that as a matter of dogma, that previous pope had been infallible. John argued that this would bound all Popes to any mistakes made by a predecessor. So he argued against Papal Infallibility.

Then you try to suggest by innuendo that they were wrong to condemn Honorius - why else raise that. And that they condemned him for a personal opinion! ?!?

Then, although infallibility is a special ‘gift’ given only to the Pope to speak ex cathedra, you claim it’s shared. Only insofar as a bishop can re-state what is already infallibly taught.
 
Right, or else we’re left in the same tenuous position as the “Bible Only” Protestants who end up with nothing agreed upon as to what is definitive for Christian belief and practice - a Body without a Head. It becomes a free-for-all that will continue to divide the Church under the guidance of the spirit of schism.
Only if you assume that only a ‘presidential’ type of ‘head’ can exist.

Unfortunately, the Apostles didn’t believe this, else they’d not all meet together (as in Acts 15) and decide as a whole

“But observe how Peter does everything with the common consent; nothing imperiously.”
St. John Chrysotomon, Homily III on Acts 1:12
ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-11/npnf1-11-10.htm#P272_117779

Eusebius wrote of this in his church history (note he also quotes Clement – a supposed Papal prince). “This James, whom the early Christians surnamed the Righteous because of his outstanding virtue, was the first, as the records tell us, to be elected to the Episcopal throne of the Jerusalem church. Clement, in Outlines Book VI, puts it thus: “Peter, James, and John, after the Ascension of the Saviour, did not claim pre-eminence because the Saviour had especially honoured them, but chose James the Righteous as Bishop of Jerusalem.”

“The History of the Church” – II.I quoted in Whelton, pp38-9, also at ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-07.htm#P938_461218
 
I thought I was having deja vu with this thread, I just didn’t realize it was from the exact same poster. Seeing as nothing new is being presented by Montalban, and the tactic of strawman arguments hasn’t changed in over a year, I’m not really that enthusiastic in personally continuing this discussion much.

Anyone who wants to see version 1.0 of this exact same discussion, check out this thread.

Peace and God bless!
 
I thought I was having deja vu with this thread, I just didn’t realize it was from the exact same poster. Seeing as nothing new is being presented by Montalban, and the tactic of strawman arguments hasn’t changed in over a year, I’m not really that enthusiastic in personally continuing this discussion much.

Anyone who wants to see version 1.0 of this exact same discussion, check out this thread.

Peace and God bless!
You make the exact same non-point on another thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1490965#post1490965

I guess this too, serves as debate. Silly me for not simply having submitted. You’ve been debating me on this thread for how long (?) and you come up with this comment !?!? Wow!

You suppose also that
a) you know why I left a year ago
b) that the discussion was completed a year ago
and
c) that I have not in any way modified my stance

Here endeth the discussion?
 
Dear Montalban
No, not quite! He came out and ruled against a ruling of a previous pope on the issue of poverty. Your conveniently omitting that It wasn’t a case of a Pope -v- Franciscans but a Pope -v- a previous Pope who’d ruled in favour of the Franciscan idea of poverty
My point is that the Franciscan idea of poverty is not a matter of Faith and morals, whether a Pope agrees with it or not. And so what if another Pope disagrees with a previous Pope on that issue? It is like saying, “Pope A says oranges are red. Another Pope says he is wrong because oranges are orange.” Well, SO WHAT? If it is not an issue of Faith or morals, how exactly does infallibility come into play? Please explain.
I’ve already stated the wording of their condemnation. You seem to think that they were condemning him for a private opinion.

Are you saying that they were wrong to condemn Honorius? What then is your point is saying this?
If the Pope approved of that council as ecumenical, then is it not infallible as per your own catechism?
Oh, I see your misunderstanding. NO, the Catholic Church does NOT teach that EVERY SINGLE ITEM proposed or pronounced by an ecumenical council, or even every single item of a pronouncement by a Pope ex cathedra, enjoys the guarantee of infallibility. In all cases, ONLY items regarding a definition of Faith and morals are guaranteed infallibility, for these are the things that can NEVER change. Even when a Pope makes a decree ex cathedra, ONLY the portion of his decree that is the definition of Faith or morals is considered to be infallible. Attendant explanations or comments (unless such explanations or comments are simply repeating previous infallible statements) in that decree are not considered infallible.

In light of this, yes, I believe it was wrong of the Sixth Council to condemn Pope Honorius as a heretic. Understand this, however - the condemnation of monothelitism itself was infallible. But whether a certain person actually believed or taught monothelitism - such is not a matter of supernatural Faith or divinely instituted morals. Such a decision depends completely on material evidence, which may have been lacking to the Church. Or perhaps the Council was ruled by imperial or church politics in such a condemnation. Or perhaps…

In any case, current evidence indicates the Pope never taught monothelitism publicly, and even casts doubt on whether the Pope actually accepted monothelitism. The anathema can be revoked (indeed, the very nature of anathema as a disciplinary measure means it is intended to be revoked).

And no, they did not condemn him for a private opinion. They condemned him for not doing the job he, as head bishop of the Church at large, was INTENDED to do as a divine obligation - be proactive in condemning the heresy. Instead, he simply suggested to Sergius privately that the matter not be discussed. Having done nothing, the heresy spread, and the Church regarded that as condemnable. Have you ever heard the saying, “the only thing necessary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing?”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear Montalban,
Nice to ignore that this is excepting that only the Pope can speak ex cathedra.
Well, I didn’t really think about it because it does not really matter. We are speaking of the charism of infallibility period. There are certain conditions that need to be met for us sinful human creatures to apprehend whether some teaching is infallible. For all bishops, one of these conditions is vocal unity on a teaching. For the Pope, one of these conditions is ex cathedra - that is, he must intend to speak as the head bishop (i.e., his Petrine headship). Are you arguing that every member of the Church is a head bishop? This point you bring up is rather nonsensical.
“But observe how Peter does everything with the common consent; nothing imperiously.”
St. John Chrysotomon, Homily III on Acts 1:12
Until you can give an example of the Pope acting or making decisions on his own whim or fancy, without the support of any other bishop, then you should cease giving these quotes as if they can do anything to damage the integrity of the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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