Papal Infallibility

[Ace86]

Okay. I have a question.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm

Chapter 3: On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

Does anyone here think that the Pope has the right to order a bishop to put all the Tabernacles in the centers of the parishes in his diocese? I know someone who doesn’t seem to think so, but I think that this proves it. I think that the placement of the Tabernacle is a discipline. Am I right?

 

[Liberian]

Ace,

There may be a difference between the requirement of the bishop to submit and the right of the Pope to order. You find that in traffic law, where car A must yield right of way to car B but it is not car B’s prerogative to take the right of way. You also find it in human relations where a man should treat a woman with respect but it is not the woman’s place to demand this respect.

• Liberian

 

[Ace86]

Ace,

There may be a difference between the requirement of the bishop to submit and the right of the Pope to order. You find that in traffic law, where car A must yield right of way to car B but it is not car B’s prerogative to take the right of way. You also find it in human relations where a man should treat a woman with respect but it is not the woman’s place to demand this respect.

• Liberian

Okay, I understand what you’re saying, but does this apply in my example?

How far does the Pope’s immediate and supreme authority go?

 

[Scottgun]

Yeah, he has the authority to do that. Whether it would be prudent for him to do so is another question. Popes generally will not stomp on bishop perrogatives, but he certainly could if it warrented it.

 

[EBSSTF4]

There is a hierarchy in the Church, Pope trumps Bishop. Papal Infallibility applies to maters of Faith and morality. If the Pope decides that since Jesus is the center of the mass the tabernacle needs to be moved to the center, the Bishop must direct the parish priests to do so. What the Vatican would do if it was not followed however, well there are plenty of Bishops taking liberty’s with their Diocese.

 

[Ace86]

Okay, I understand it might not be prudent for the pope to do such a thing, but how would he go about it? Apostolic letter? Motu propio? A private letter telling the bishop to do so “or else”?

 

[EBSSTF4]

Okay, I understand it might not be prudent for the pope to do such a thing, but how would he go about it? Apostolic letter? Motu propio? A private letter telling the bishop to do so “or else”?

Since the General Instruction of the Roman Missal dictates the placement of the Tabernacle, he would most likely issue a revised edition. Or an Apostolic letter could be used if he wanted to explain his thoughts behind the change, to discuss the significance of the change, or if he felt it was critical to expedite the change. The GRIM would still need to be changed.

A motu Proprio is doubtful, it would be unlikely he would make such a change on his own, without seeking advice, or consulting others looking for any issues that may come up. The Vatican moves slowly in most cases to avoid unintentional problems, or contradictory teachings. But he could, he is the Pope

 

[Ace86]

So how does one reconcile this idea if one were to read Lumen Gentium?

The pastoral office or the habitual and daily care of their sheep is entrusted to them completely; nor are they to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs, for they exercise an authority that is proper to them, and are quite correctly called “prelates,” heads of the people whom they govern. Their power, therefore, is not destroyed by the supreme and universal power, but on the contrary it is affirmed, strengthened and vindicated by it, since the Holy Spirit unfailingly preserves the form of government established by Christ the Lord in His Church.

 

[EBSSTF4]

So how does one reconcile this idea if one were to read Lumen Gentium?

The pastoral office or the habitual and daily care of their sheep is entrusted to them completely; nor are they to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs, for they exercise an authority that is proper to them, and are quite correctly called “prelates,” heads of the people whom they govern. Their power, therefore, is not destroyed by the supreme and universal power, but on the contrary it is affirmed, strengthened and vindicated by it, since the Holy Spirit unfailingly preserves the form of government established by Christ the Lord in His Church.

Depends on where in the document you look, and how you interpret it.
For clarity;

Lumen Gentium

The college or body of bishops has for all that no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head, whose primatial authority, let it be added, over all, whether pastors or faithful, remains in its integrity. For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, namely, and as pastor of the entire Church, has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered. The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church;[27] but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. The Lord made Peter alone the rock-foundation and the holder of the keys of the Church (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and constituted him shepherd of his whole flock (cf. Jn. 21:15 ff.)…

Cannon Law

Can. 331 The office uniquely committed by the Lord to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, abides in the Bishop of the Church of Rome. He is the head of the College of Bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the Pastor of the universal Church here on earth. Consequently, by virtue of his office, he has supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church, and he can always freely exercise this power.
Can. 333 ß1 By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only has power over the universal Church, but also has pre‚eminent ordinary power over all particular Churches and their groupings. This reinforces and defends the proper, ordinary and immediate power which the Bishops have in the particular Churches entrusted to their care.

ß2 The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling his office as supreme Pastor of the Church, is always joined in full communion with the other Bishops, and indeed with the whole Church. He has the right, however, to determine, according to the needs of the Church, whether this office is to be exercised in a personal or in a collegial manner.

ß3 There is neither appeal nor recourse against a judgment or a decree of the Roman Pontiff.

Can. 334 The Bishops are available to the Roman Pontiff in the exercise of his office, to cooperate with him in various ways, among which is the synod of Bishops. Cardinals also assist him, as do other persons and, according to the needs of the time, various institutes; all these persons and institutes fulfill their offices in his name and by his authority, for the good of all the Churches, in accordance with the norms determined by law.

Can. 335 When the Roman See is vacant, or completely impeded, no innovation is to be made in the governance of the universal Church. The special laws enacted for these circumstances are to be observed.

We have nearly 2000 years of writings, somtimes not clear.

 

[Ace86]

Well I agree about the part about interpreting. I guess one could have a very broad interpretation of Lumen Gentium.

But I don’t. What I’d like to know is the Church’s interpretation. I would think that it would be more narrow; in other words, the same as you interpreted it.

 

[Ace86]

bump