Papal Infallibility

[Alchemist]

This is a doctrine of the Church that I’m really iffy about. I don’t even know if it’s true. My friend told me that this doctrine comes from several things said by Jesus in the Bible. Anyway the thing that bothers me the most is the Infallible statement by Pope Eugene IV.

“All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved.”
Eugene IV, D:714

I really need some light shed on this issue of mine, are all people outside of the Catholic Church really condemned?

 

[USMC]

This is a doctrine of the Church that I’m really iffy about. I don’t even know if it’s true. My friend told me that this doctrine comes from several things said by Jesus in the Bible. Anyway the thing that bothers me the most is the Infallible statement by Pope Eugene IV.

“All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved.”
Eugene IV, D:714

I really need some light shed on this issue of mine, are all people outside of the Catholic Church really condemned?

The quote from Pope Eugene is one of about a hundred such quotes from Popes and doctors of the Church. “No salvation outside the Catholic Church” is a truth that has been revealed to us by God.

The remainder of the quote from Pope Eugene states that all heretics, all pagans, all Jews, and all Mulsims will go to hell, unless they join the Church before they die.

This does not necessarily mean that a person has to be a visible member of the Church. Although probably very rare, it is *possible *for a person to be united to the soul of the Church without being visibly united to the body. For example, a child who is baptized in a Protestant sect is united to the soul of the Catholic Church, until such time as they grow up and adhere to one of the many errors taught by Protestants.

It is even possible for an adult to be united to the soul of the Church if they are validly baptized by a heretic. This is possible if, at the time of Baptism, they believe all the truths that have been revealed to them, and do not reject any dogmas of the Catholic faith. Such a person is said to be a “material heretic” rather than a formal heretic. A person such as this can be saved if he dies before adhering to a heresy taught by his sect, and without commiting a mortal sin. As long as a person believes in the Trinity and Incarnation, their ignorance of other dogmas of the faith will not prevent them from being saved, unless their ignorance is due to their own fault, such as sloth, or neglect.

It is also speculated by theologians that it is possible, but even more unlikely, that an unbaptized person can obtain the state of grace, and thus be united to the soul of the Church. It is speculated that this could happen if they made an act of perfect charity and perfect contrition for thier sins. The act of perfect charity could suffice for baptism of desire while the act of perfect contrition could obtain for them forgiveness of their sins.

Catechism of Pope Pius X:

27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the [visible] Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation".

These “exceptions” are just that: Exceptions. Although it may be possible for a person who is not a visible member of the Church to attain salvation, we should not presume upon this. Salvation is difficult enough for those who have the true faith and sacraments. How much harder for those with neither? Maybe one in a few million.

 

[Alchemist]

So then Billions, nay Trillions of people are going to hell then. The native americans prior to colonization went to hell, as did the Mayans.

A friend of mine in Japan is extremely offended by Christianity he said to me “Are you telling me that my people in Japan, and all their ancestors who were around long before any Bible was ever written are all going to hell?”

This doctrine really seems to make Catholicism out to be an ineffective method for salvation.

 

[thistle]

So then Billions, nay Trillions of people are going to hell then. The native americans prior to colonization went to hell, as did the Mayans.

A friend of mine in Japan is extremely offended by Christianity he said to me “Are you telling me that my people in Japan, and all their ancestors who were around long before any Bible was ever written are all going to hell?”

This doctrine really seems to make Catholicism out to be an ineffective method for salvation.

Jesus himself hinted that a lot more will go to Hell than to Heaven.

Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many go that way. How narrow is the gate that leads to life and how rough the road, and there are few people who find it."

 

[PhilVaz]

Alchem << So then Billions, nay Trillions of people are going to hell then. The native americans prior to colonization went to hell, as did the Mayans. >>

Trillions? I don’t think there’s been trillions of people on earth yet unless you count other galaxies and planets.

The teaching “no salvation outside the Church” has been affirmed as early as Origen and St. Cyprian (3rd century), but is nuanced this way:

1. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” [Vatican II LG 16; Denz 3866-3872]

I don’t see how people who never heard could be at fault. There are a couple books that address this:

THE SALVATION OF THE UNBELIEVER by Riccardo Lombardi, SJ (translated from the Italian by Dorothy M. White, The Newman Press, 1956)

Another book dealing specifically with this issue is I think offered by Catholic Answers, but can’t remember the title.

This Rock dealt with this in articles by Kenneth Howell, and another by Mark Brumley

Phil P

 

[Alchemist]

Alchem << So then Billions, nay Trillions of people are going to hell then. The native americans prior to colonization went to hell, as did the Mayans. >>

Trillions? I don’t think there’s been trillions of people on earth yet unless you count other galaxies and planets.

The teaching “no salvation outside the Church” has been affirmed as early as Origen and St. Cyprian (3rd century), but is nuanced this way:

1. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” [Vatican II LG 16; Denz 3866-3872]

I don’t see how people who never heard could be at fault. There are a couple books that address this:

THE SALVATION OF THE UNBELIEVER by Riccardo Lombardi, SJ (translated from the Italian by Dorothy M. White, The Newman Press, 1956)

Another book dealing specifically with this issue is I think offered by Catholic Answers, but can’t remember the title.

This Rock dealt with this in articles by Kenneth Howell, and another by Mark Brumley

Phil P

Such a revision seems very suspicious. I mean, the origional doctrine was 3rd century and the clarification of it came up in the Second Vatican Council 300AD - 1962AD is quite a significant gap.

And does knowing the Gospel of Christ involve hearing it? Or hearing it and having it strike as meaningful and true to the person who witnesses it?

 

[Verbum]

Hi USMC,

These “exceptions” are just that: Exceptions. Although it may be possible for a person who is not a visible member of the Church to attain salvation, we should not presume upon this. Salvation is difficult enough for those who have the true faith and sacraments. How much harder for those with neither? Maybe one in a few million.

I admire your zeal for the true faith, but these statements are gratuitous, not justified by anything the Church teaches. The oft quoted article from the Catechism originates from the document of the Sacred Council called Lumen Gentium. Here is the fuller statement :

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation. (…)

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

You can find the full text of Lumen Gentium at

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

So you can see that, while God does not deny grace to pagans, it is, as you say more difficult for them to achieve salvation. Hence the call to "preach the Gospel to every creature. But the desperate situation that you seem to identify is not justified by this text.

Verbum

 

[PhilVaz]

Alchem << Such a revision seems very suspicious. I mean, the original doctrine was 3rd century and the clarification of it came up in the Second Vatican Council 300AD - 1962AD is quite a significant gap. >>

That’s true, but This Rock again to the rescue. Some of the Fathers seem to teach a “good pagan” could be saved as well. Darn I can’t find the references, something in St. Justin Martyr and St. Augustine. Sorry I can’t be more helpful.

I found the book I think Catholic Answers offers, or used to offer: Salvation Outside the Church: Tracing the History of the Catholic Response by Fr. Francis Sullivan

Another short article by Fr. Ray Ryland

Alchem << And does knowing the Gospel of Christ involve hearing it? Or hearing it and having it strike as meaningful and true to the person who witnesses it? >>

Hearing and believing vs. rejecting, but even then one can be saved. You ask difficult questions and I haven’t gone to bed yet.

Phil P

 

[USMC]

Hi USMC,

These “exceptions” are just that: Exceptions. Although it may be possible for a person who is not a visible member of the Church to attain salvation, we should not presume upon this. Salvation is difficult enough for those who have the true faith and sacraments. How much harder for those with neither? Maybe one in a few million.

I admire your zeal for the true faith, but these statements are gratuitous, not justified by anything the Church teaches.
Verbum

If you can be a little more specific as to what I said that you disagree with, I will respond.

Also, name just one person who has been saved, since the founding of Christianity, who was not a visible member of the Catholic Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Also, name just one person who has been saved, since the founding of Christianity, who was not a visible member of the Catholic Church.

ME!!! Sorry I couldnt resist
Back to regular broadcast:thumbsup:

 

[VociMike]

ME!!! Sorry I couldnt resist
Back to regular broadcast:thumbsup:

Wow, they have internet in heaven?

 

[Verbum]

Hi USMC,

How much harder for those with neither? Maybe one in a few million.

That is the statement I find rash. It describes a situation of despair whereas the Church document sends a message of hope.

Verbum

 

[frnate]

Also, name just one person who has been saved, since the founding of Christianity, who was not a visible member of the Catholic Church.

Mrs. Lee Roberson

Unless, of course, you are speaking of the Catholic Church in general rather than the Roman variety. In that case you would be correct.

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[mikew262]

Also, name just one person who has been saved, since the founding of Christianity, who was not a visible member of the Catholic Church.

Nobody but God truly knows the answer to that.

 

[frnate]

Mrs. Lee Roberson

Unless, of course, you are speaking of the Catholic Church in general rather than the Roman variety. In that case you would be correct.

Peace,
+Nathan

OH WAIT!!!

Elvis Presley TOO!!

Hey! I can believe it if I want to.:yup:

 

[VociMike]

This is a doctrine of the Church that I’m really iffy about. I don’t even know if it’s true. My friend told me that this doctrine comes from several things said by Jesus in the Bible. Anyway the thing that bothers me the most is the Infallible statement by Pope Eugene IV.

“All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved.”
Eugene IV, D:714

I really need some light shed on this issue of mine, are all people outside of the Catholic Church really condemned?

This is an excellent example of the development of doctrine, whereby the Church, having received the fullness of divine revelation at her birth, grows in her understanding of that revelation over the ages.

The statement “all outside of the Catholic Church cannot be saved” is true. What is better understood now is what it means to be outside of the Church. Since the Church is the body of all believers, to be outside of the Church is to be an unbeliever. And since true belief, living faith, is demonstrated not by words but by seeking to do the will of God, all those who seek to do the will of God may be members of the Church, though obviously not in full union with her. This may even include those who do not know of Christ, if they seek to do the will of God by following His law which is written into every human heart.

Those in perfect, visible union with the Catholic Church are assured the path of salvation. For all others, the Church recognizes that they may be in imperfect, invisible union with her, but only God knows for sure.

 

[USMC]

This is an excellent example of the development of doctrine, whereby the Church, having received the fullness of divine revelation at her birth, grows in her understanding of that revelation over the ages.

Now, let’s see if you describe true developement of doctrine - whereby the truth that has always been believed is still believed in the exact same way, but in greater detail; or of you are going to describe evolution of doctrine - whereby the understanding of the doctrine “evolves” from one meaning into a another.

The statement “all outside of the Catholic Church cannot be saved” is true. What is better understood now is what it means to be outside of the Church. Since the Church is the body of all believers, to be outside of the Church is to be an unbeliever.

If you acknowledge that only Catholics are believers, your statement is correct. But if you are claiming that non-Catholics are also believers, this is an error and contrary to what the Church has always taught. This would be an example of evolution of doctrine, as it would be a 180 degree reversal from what the Church has always taught.

A person who rejects a single truth that has been revealed by God is not a believer, and does not have any faith at all. That includes all Protestants who reject Papal Infallibility, purgatory, the true presense, the Assumption, or any other dogma of the Catholic Faith.

Catechism of Pius X:

Question. What is the Catholic Church?

Answer. The Catholic Church is the Union or Congregation of all the baptised who, still living on earth, profess the same Faith and the same Law of Jesus Christ, participate in the same Sacraments, and obey their lawful Pastors, particularly the Roman Pontiff.

9 Q. State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church?

A. To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptised, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

12 Q. The many societies of persons who are baptised but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

A. No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?

A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

Those belonging to a false religion, or a heretical sect, are not believers and do not belong to the Catholic Church, as the above quotes from the Catechism say.

While it is possible for a person to be united to the soul of the Church without being united to the visible body, this is the exception to the rule.

Combatting the liberalism of his day, Pope Pius XII wrote the following

Pope Pius XII: “Only those are really to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith and who have not unhappily withdrawn from Body-unity or for grave faults have been excluded by legitimate authority” (Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, 1943).

There has been no developement with regard to the unity of the Church. The only difference is that the focus has almost completely been directed to the subjective exception, and the possibilities - to such an extent that most Catholics now reject the objective rule, which has been defined as a dogma of the faith.

The proof of this is that I could quote about 10 or 15 past Popes or doctors of the Church teaching what has been infallibly defined - that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, and that all Jews Muslims and heretics will be lost - and these quotes would be flatly rejected as being “outdated”.

True development of doctrine does not reverse what had been taught. On the contrary, it brings greater clarity to the teaching. For example when the Church defined transubstantiation it did not reverse the teaching that Jesus is truly present of the Blessed Sacrament, but brought a greater clarity to what had always been taught.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Also, name just one person who has been saved, since the founding of Christianity, who was not a visible member of the Catholic Church.

Mahatma Ghandi was a holy man who was not a Christian. But he did live according to many of the teachings of Christ, including love your enemy.

Simone Weil believed in Christ and followed Christian teachings, but she refused to be baptized.

Devout Jews, Muslims, and others who pray to God are generally saved by grace and devotion to God.

See my article Treatise on Mystical Baptism
catholicplanet.com/RCC/mystical-baptism.htm
for an explanation as to how such persons can be baptized, without a formal baptism, so that they are part of the Church and are saved.

The Pope and the Magisterium in general are only infallible under certain conditions, otherwise their teaching is non-infallible and subject to reform.

Ron Conte

 

[lumengentleman]

Such a revision seems very suspicious. I mean, the origional doctrine was 3rd century and the clarification of it came up in the Second Vatican Council 300AD - 1962AD is quite a significant gap.

The gap isn’t nearly as wide as that. Prior to the Second Vatican Council, of course, there was the clarification of the Holy Office:

Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. (Letter of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, Suprema Haec Sacra, August 8, 1949)

And also Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange:

We cannot overemphasize this point: the moment the fundamental will of a man is efficaciously directed toward the true good, the man is justified, he is in the state of grace, he possesses within himself the seed of eternal life. (Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, Our Savior and His Love for Us, pp. 6-7)

Later, even SSPX founder Archbishop Lefebvre wrote:

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church. (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics, chapter 10, “Ecumenism”)

You can go back earlier and find St. Ambrose saying:

But I hear that you are sorrowing because he [the Emperor Valentinian II] did not receive the rites of baptism. Tell me, what else is there in us but will, but petition? Now, quite recently it was his intention to be baptized before coming into Italy. He let it be known that he wanted to be baptized by me very shortly, and it was for that reason, above all others, that he decided to have me sent for. Does he not, then, have the grace he desired? Does he not have what he prayed for? Surely, because he prayed for it, he has received it. Hence it is that “the soul of the just man will be at rest, whatever kind of death may overtake him.” (De obitu Valentiniani, 51. MPL, XVI, 1374)

The teaching is not as new as you might think.

 

[USMC]

Mahatma Ghandi was a holy man who was not a Christian. But he did live according to many of the teachings of Christ, including love your enemy.

Simone Weil believed in Christ and followed Christian teachings, but she refused to be baptized.

Devout Jews, Muslims, and others who pray to God are generally saved by grace and devotion to God.

Ron Conte

So, a women who refused baptism was saved? Mahatma Ghandi the Buddhist was saved? Devout Jews, Muslims and other who pray to God are generally saved?

I am curious what you think about the following quotes from the magisterium:

Pope Gregory XVI: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies” (Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832).

Pope Gregory XVI: “With the admonition of the apostle that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate’ [Athanasian Creed] (Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832).

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held **by faith **that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Saint Pope Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)

Pope Pius IX: “We must mention and condemn again **that most pernicious error **which has been imbibed by certain Catholics who are of the opinion that those people who live in error and have not the true faith and are separated from Catholic unity, may obtain life everlasting. Now this opinion is most contrary to the Catholic faith, as is evident from the plain words of Our Lord, (Matt 18:17; Mark 16:16; Luke 10:16; John 3:18) as also from the words of Saint Paul (2 Tit. 3:11) and of Saint Peter (2 Peter 2:1). To entertain opinions contrary to this Catholic faith is to be an impious wretch.”

What do you think about those quotes from Popes and Saints of the Church? Do they reflect what you believe? Or do you believe the exact opposite?