Papal Integrity

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Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
 
Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
Um, I always just say the Pope could be the biggest sinner in the world and its no problem, as long as he can get it together on faith and morals I personally dont care how much ill repute is tangled in his life.

And since matters of faith and morals have been taught without erring, I say its hardly worth your time digging up dirty(in their personal lives) popes. and trying to defend them.

Unless I misunderstood this guys beef?
 
Ask your friend if the failings of Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggert negated the Gospel message. If s/he says no, then ask him/her why the sins of the popes would do it.

The Catholic Church doesn’t claim that the pope is impeccable (incapable of committing sin), but only that as the pope infallibility comes with his office. That is probably the problem your friend is having–distinguishing between those two words/concepts.
 
Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
There have been bad Popes, of whom the most stylish was Alexander VI. However they were very few in number, maybe six or seven out of 265, whilst many other Popes have shown heroic sancity, whilst the majority have been perfectly competent and respectable managers.

If Alexander VI was the norm rather than the exception, then it would maybe be some sort of argument against the Church being the true body of Christ. However medieval artists were always careful to put a pope or two in their depictions of Hell, to make the point that a man’s level in the hierarchy reflects his function, not his spiritual status.
 
Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
Ask your friend to consider for a bit the Hebrew people of the Old Testament. God choose Israel to be a holy nation, a people set apart for Himself. So how do they comport themselves as a holy people? - Murder, idolatry, harlotry, adultery, you name it they did it. Yet God did not abandon them, for His divine purpose was being accomplished in the midst of all the sinfulness of His still holy people.

In the scene portrayed in St. John’s Gospel where Our Lord greets the Samaritan woman at the well of Jacob, what does He say to her? “Salvation is from the Jews.” These are the same Jews who did all those previously mentioned evils, and who would soon put Him to death, using their enemies to commit deicide - and “salvation is from them”! Why? They were Holy, the people chosen by God; despite all they had done God still acted through them to accomplish His salvific will.

So it is with the Catholic Church. When man was reconciled to God by and in His Son the Catholic Church, the Incarnation extended in time and place, became the means by which humanity could enter into the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. Through the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, God dispenses the Grace (Divine Life) – especially through the sacramental life – to bring all people to Himself. The Church in its essence (Christ) is holy, but individual members can be, and often are, sinful, even dreadfully so. Yet God is always faithful and so, just as He did not abandon His Chosen (Holy) People the Jews, He will not abandon His Holy Church which is the Body of Christ, His Son, from Whom all holiness springs.
 
Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
Actually, I find those “vilely immoral” popes (as my uncle likes to call them) as surer proof of infallibillity than almost anything else. Because the thing is, the Church had been tested rigorously and passed. Of all of those Popes of whom it is know lived sinful lifestyles and seemed to have very little regard for the Church as anything other than a ladder to power, not one of them even attempted to change Church doctrine to suit their agendas. Not one even tried. In fact, some of the really bad ones were actually in favor of Church reform. God was protecting His Church just as He promised He would even when Satan managed to get his servants into leadershp positions. That is infallibility.

Also, I’ve found that many common arguments against specific Popes are just patently wrong. I would suggest getting a copy of “An Oxford Dictionary of Popes” by J.N.D Kelly. He’s an Anglican scholar so should be taken as an unbiased author. I found the book immensely helpful. 🙂
 
Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
Ask this person where they would draw the line regarding how much papal sin the Church could suffer and still retain its integrity? If he/she thinks that there may be “too much” papal sin, ask how much would be just under “too much”.
 
Help me out guys!

I’m having a discussion which has turned to the shadier side of the historic Papacy. Can anyone offer ideas or links to refutations of an argument that questions the integrity of a faith with a history than has, at times, suffered from suspect morallity?
IMO, you will get nowhere trying to compare our Popes with bad Protestant leaders…that kind of finger pointing accomplishes nothing.

What you need is a clear demonstration that personal moral failure does not undermine the authority of the office. Here it is:

THE IMPACT OF SIN ON CHURCH AUTHORITY

“If a Church leader is guilty of gross immorality, does his sin invalidate his position or authority?”

Many, if not most, Protestants would say that it does, and they often use this line of reasoning to justify their denial of the authority of the Catholic Church. They cite historical events such as the Crusades, the Inquisition or reign of the Borgia Popes as evidence that the Church has lost its claim to moral and spiritual authority.

Such a response, however, is unbiblical. For example, Scripture states that Jesus knew “from the beginning” who would betray him – namely Judas, whom Jesus calls a “devil” (cf. John 6:64–71). This fact is significant, since Judas was selected as an apostle even though Jesus knew that he was corrupt.

Another example would be found in Jesus’ teaching on “Moses’ seat” found in the opening verses of Matthew 23: “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’” (Matthew 23:1-3)

“Moses’ seat” is a phrase that referred to a position of legitimate teaching authority held by the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. Later, Jesus condemned these men as “hypocrites,” “blind guides,” “blind fools,” “serpents,” and a “brood of vipers.” But in the passage above, Jesus specifically instructed the crowds and his disciples to obey these leaders – despite their corruption – because of the authority of their position. That is sobering stuff.

If it were true that immorality invalidated a religious leader’s authority, then why did Jesus command his followers to “obey and do everything” the scribes and Pharisees tell them? Jesus merely admonished his followers not to follow their hypocritical example. There is not even the slightest hint that their positions had been forfeited or abrogated because of their hypocrisy or immorality. If anything, the reverse is true because Jesus validated these leaders’ office by telling people to obey them.

(continued)
 
In the Parable of the Weeds found in Matthew 13, Jesus tells His disciples to anticipate corruption within the Church. He said:

Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. "The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ (Matthew 13:24-30)

Notice it is not the world at large that is being described but rather the “kingdom of heaven” or Church that is portrayed as the field containing both wheat and weeds. Jesus does not indicate that weeds (sinners) should be uprooted from the field (Church) until the separation done at the time of the final harvest.

Of course, sin and corruption in Church leadership should never be condoned but neither should they surprise us. The Church is not a paradise for saints who are already perfected but a hospital for the spiritually sick who are being healed.
 
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