Papal Jurisdiction....

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My point is the see of Peter resides in Rome, i.e., Pope Celestine is his rightful successor and head of the Church as indicated and specified at Ephesus, thereby nullifying what you’ve said earlier about their not being a specific Petrine see/office. :dancing:
Well that’s just silly. I already dealt with the confusion between “See” and “Office” in the last paragraph of my reply to pol18guy. We certainly agree that there are Petrine sees (we do not agree that there is only one, and neither did your forefathers), but this idea of an “office” that is passed down that confers certain rights such that will make references to St. Peter’s apostleship equivalent to whoever is in Rome (e.g., St. Peter = Roman Pope; that only maybe works going one way 'round, at best). Again, the question is how apostolic succession is to work. It is not present in the person by virtue of his occupying a given see/chair/throne or whatever. It can be and is taken away as necessary for the preservation of the faith of the Church, the Orthodox faith. This was significantly shown some centuries after Ephesus with the anathematization of Honorius (affirmed explicitly by his successors such as Leo II), so all this stuff about Rome being forever possessing of the judgment of Peter in any kind of exclusive manner is disputed by your own history on several fronts. It is not much of a shock to see the Roman legate speaking in such a manner, and in so far as the gathered bishops had seen no contradiction of that statement at that point (i.e., Peter really had spoken through the Popes), there’s not really any problem with that. Obviously, though, as subsequent history has shown that no Patriarch, Roman or not, is above messing up (Nestorius was Patriarch of Constantinople, after all) and being dealt with on that account, there is something more at stake here than what we make of a particular passage plucked out of a council. In that case, we need only look at what actually happened: Roman Popes were not treated as though they had such authority when they were in fact wrong, and the Church did not hesitate to dispatch with them as surely as the apostles replaced Judas. This is still the case in the Orthodox Church, and it is from this perspective that we find our ecclesiology reflected in the ancient Church, and look askance at the developments in the RCC understanding of what their Pope can and cannot do of his own power.
 
I think we’ve often discussed this, Nicea. 🙂

My understanding is that it was to formalize jurisdiction of bishops.
As far as others going to the Bishop of Rome for counsel, I fail to see how that translates into universal jurisdiction.

on
My friend in Christ, it was not mere counsel,but to settle and finalize grave issues. Very much a like court. Again, if any bishop was binded to one local jurisdiction,why even take any issue,small or large to Rome? Why not take the issue to a nearer See,instead of Rome? Not just to hear,but to end the problem at hand? Sounds like universal jurisdiction to me because it is outside one’s own walls.

God Bless youmy brother.
 
I think we’ve often discussed this, Nicea. 🙂

My understanding is that it was to formalize jurisdiction of bishops.
As far as others going to the Bishop of Rome for counsel, I fail to see how that translates into universal jurisdiction.

on
If the term universal jurisdiction applies exclusively to the members of the Catholic church (as opposed to non-Catholic churches) then would you agree? 🙂
 
It isn’t unbroken. Depending on who you ask, Rome or the Byzantines or the non-Chalcedonians or the Nestorians left it after their respective schisms from one another. That’s the entire point of any of my posts on this matter: If you take Rome to be the de facto nucleus around which Christianity centers (and I suppose if anybody’s going to, it would make sense for the Romans and those in communion with them to do so), then the RCC apologia on this point makes perfect sense. If, however, you are on the other side of the Nile, the Bosphorus, or the Euphrates, then it is not clear why any of Rome’s claims are to be taken as self-evident, as RCC apologists in this thread and elsewhere have claimed.

Perspective is not given its proper credit on internet forums or in life, I’m afraid. Indeed there is truth that does not vary based on where you’re sitting, but all this stuff about a unique role for the Roman Pope isn’t one such inarguable truth, or else we would not have our own traditions that don’t include it (and you wouldn’t have yours that do).
No offense, you clearly said it is NOT an office. Then what is the bishopric to you? An open-end position?
 
No offense, you clearly said it is NOT an office. Then what is the bishopric to you? An open-end position?
An episcopal see/seat/throne. Again, the problem is in what the RCC claims comes with it, not with it existing (in that sense, Sees are not to be confused with “Offices”, since apparently to the RCC the “office” is some sort of metaphorical thing handed down from Pope to Pope from St. Peter that gives them the right to tell the rest of the Church what to do because Peter was prince of the apostles; no). Nobody denies that there are Sees. Everyone who isn’t Catholic denies that the Roman bishop, through the authority of St. Peter, XYZ.

Let me see if I can put this in another way.

The Coptic Orthodox Pope, who sits upon the throne of St. Mark and is the most senior bishop in the See of St. Mark, which is located in an actual physical place (Egypt), has prerogatives that are proper to him by virtue of the authority granted within his territory in the ancient canons of the Church, both conciliar (i.e., the canons adopted at Nicea) and particular (the Canons of St. Basil, consisting of 13 shared with the Melkites and 105-06 particular to the Copts). He is subject to the ruling of the Holy Synod which he chairs, should they find reason to discipline or depose him, as has happened historically and recently. While the territory considered proper to him has fluctuated throughout the 2000 years of the church’s life (e.g., it used to include places it does not now include, and it now includes places it did not once include, as the ebb and flow of history has brought autocephaly to the Tewahedo, and diasporas and missionary work to new parts of the world which are then considered “Coptic” territory by virtue of being home to Coptic communities, churches, dioceses, etc.), it has never included the canonical territory of another bishop, even in those cases when, for various reasons, Coptic people set up their own churches in territories that are traditionally those of other Patriarchs (e.g., the Copts in Lebanon, who have been there since the 1980s despite Lebanon falling under Antiochian jurisdiction). In those cases and in every other such case, the Coptic Pope cannot step in and tell Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas (or HH Abune Antonios or Matteous, or the Catholicoi of Armenia, or the Malankarans) “I am the Pope. I declare the following to be binding upon you. You do it because I am recognized as having the authority and judgment given to St. Mark.”

By contrast, in the RCC model, we have the Roman Pope, who essentially does have this power to overrule or direct any bishop, even another Patriarch, even well outside of traditional Roman/Latin territory, and whose decisions are, of themselves, considered irreformable and cannot be appealed to a council, as councils/synods do not have authority over the Roman Pope in this conception of ecclesiological governance. And when non-Catholic people ask “How can this be so when there are so many early and modern examples of people not recognizing any such right of the Pope?” and are told that such things are right and necessary for the continuation of the “Office of St. Peter”…well, you see how this in no way denies that Rome is a Petrine See, or that Rome has primacy, or that St. Peter is prince among the apostles, or that there are bishoprics (or any other thing that is not actually about the claimed powers of the Roman Pope), but at the same time it’s not exactly what being a Patriarch means to the rest of the world, as it comes with no effective limit on power, jurisdiction, or other matters, all of which have been handled quite differently in the history the Church during the first millennium, and (for the Orthodox) today.

So I have no problem with bishoprics. “The Office of St. Peter”, however, I have a very big problem with. It doesn’t exist. There is no office to be tied to a specific apostle, to be conceived of separately as being contained in the man or the chair by virtue of some kind of mechanical definition of apostolicity whereby such a thing may be maintained simply by the fact that some guy exists somewhere and he sits on the throne of St. Peter in Antioch or Rome, etc. as some sort of conceptualization of authority which may then be branded so as to put the rest of the church under his rule because St. Peter was this or that. St. Peter is St. Peter, St. Mark is St. Mark, St. Andrew is St. Andrew, etc. These are the men who established the sees and entrusted them via centuries of successors to the current HH Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, HH Pope Tawadros, HAH Patriarch Bartholomew, etc. They will be preserved so long as the faith given to them is preserved unchanged, but not through supposed guarantees of everlasting power and authority throughout the universe as conceived of as being passed down through a metaphorical “office”. Again, such a thing does not exist. You want to talk bishoprics, fine, but then we’re talking about canonical territory, which throws a spanner in the works for the argument of the universal jurisdiction of your Pope.
 
Well that’s just silly. I already dealt with the confusion between “See” and “Office” in the last paragraph of my reply to pol18guy. We certainly agree that there are Petrine sees (we do not agree that there is only one, and neither did your forefathers), but this idea of an “office” that is passed down that confers certain rights such that will make references to St. Peter’s apostleship equivalent to whoever is in Rome (e.g., St. Peter = Roman Pope; that only maybe works going one way 'round, at best)
Did you not read what was said at Ephesus, i.e., Rome is not just a Petrine see (in that it has some connection to Peter), the bishop of Rome is his rightful successor and as such holds his office, i.e., there is no ambiguity with regard to what was revealed and declared at Ephesus.
Philip, presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable Synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members by our [or your] holy voices,(1) ye joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the Apostles, is blessed Peter the Apostle. And since now our mediocrity, after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, has arrived, we ask that ye give order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy Synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination.
Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince ( exarkos ) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation ( qemelios ) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place m this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc.
There is such a thing as a petrine office and the holder of that office is Pope Celestine, i.e., you can deny it all you want but this alone discredits your admission that there is no such thing as a successor to a specific apostle.
Again, the question is how apostolic succession is to work. It is not present in the person by virtue of his occupying a given see/chair/throne or whatever.
The only exception to that rule is the bishop of Rome, i.e., he holds the see/chair/office of Peter.
It can be and is taken away as necessary for the preservation of the faith of the Church, the Orthodox faith. This was significantly shown some centuries after Ephesus with the anathematization of Honorius (affirmed explicitly by his successors such as Leo II), so all this stuff about Rome being forever possessing of the judgment of Peter in any kind of exclusive manner is disputed by your own history on several fronts.
The person who holds the office of Peter is not by virtue infallible, i.e., it is the office which imbues infallibility and only with respect to matters of faith and morals spoken ex-cathedra, i.e., these are the charisms of the Petrine office. Moreover, Honorius, never, ever, spoke authoritatively in any doctrinal manner and most certainly not ex-cathedra, thus the Petrine office/see of Rome was not tainted by the likes of Honorius (some would even say, and I think that you can sympathize being a miaphysite, that Honorius was not denying that the Lord had two wills, but that his human will was aligned or in complete accord with his divine will in such a way that they were “one”).
It is not much of a shock to see the Roman legate speaking in such a manner, and in so far as the gathered bishops had seen no contradiction of that statement at that point (i.e., Peter really had spoken through the Popes), there’s not really any problem with that. Obviously, though, as subsequent history has shown that no Patriarch, Roman or not, is above messing up
That’s because you have an erroneous view of papal infallibility and what it means to hold the office of Peter, which the bishops of Rome most certainly do (no less than an ecumenical council states this)…
(Nestorius was Patriarch of Constantinople, after all) and being dealt with on that account, there is something more at stake here than what we make of a particular passage plucked out of a council. In that case, we need only look at what actually happened: Roman Popes were not treated as though they had such authority when they were in fact wrong, and the Church did not hesitate to dispatch with them as surely as the apostles replaced Judas.
You have only offered one example of a Bishop of Rome erring (and even that can be contested with respect to whether or not he was a Monothelite), i.e., no other bishop of Rome was ever condemned for heresy (which was taken seriously) prior to schism.

p.s. I would seriously run out of fingers and toes for how many patriarchs of Alexandria, Constantinople and Antioch were heresiarchs.
 
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