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TradionalWay
Guest
If I’m not mistaken, the Holy Father says his private mass in the traditional way. Why does he not celebrate the EF of mass publicly?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Because it would probably sicken a bunch of EF haters and cause them to leave the Church.
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TradionalWay
Guest
Well those who will leave the church because of the EF, are not even catholic in the first place
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Let us hope this thread can be steered into a direction away from uncharity (smiles ""s and all notwithstanding) :twocents:
tee
"s and all notwithstanding) :twocents:How do you come by this understanding?
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PiousTemplar
Guest
You’d be suprised. There are many who are completely resistant and bitter at the moment to the changing of the OF.Well those who will leave the church because of the EF, are not even catholic in the first place
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
How do you know this?
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ProVobis
Guest
You mean the new English translation? No doubt, many are bitter for various reasons. Many get upset when they lose their priest and get a new or visiting priest with a strange accent inter alia.
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alwayslooking
Guest
I may be mistaken, and this is probably all hear say, but I thought he said the OF is Latin facing the alter.
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DAAVEED1590
Guest
I compleatly agree. Modernists have no place in the churchWell those who will leave the church because of the EF, are not even catholic in the first place
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TrueLight
Guest
Ha ha. Wonder how long this thread survives.
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The_Old_Medic
Guest
Then you would exclude His Holiness Benedict XVI, Blessed John Paul II, Paul VI, John XXIII, and a host of other Saintly people that promoted the movement away from the dead Church of the past.
While no person on this earth enjoys a traditional Latin Mass more than i do (I do NOT need a Missal for one, and never have), I would hate to see the Church ever go back to it as the standard. Most Catholics did not have a clue what was going on, they went through it as a rote exercise. I know, I converted into that Church as a 9 year old boy (I wasn’t baptized till I was 13).
I learned Latin, on my own, so I COULD understand the Mass. I could never figure out why the vast majority of BORN Catholics didn’t, they didn’t know the beauty and the Majesty of the Mass. (NOTE: I was the only member of my Seminary Class that actually understood every word of the Ordinary and The proper of the Mass, when I went to Sem.)
Sitting there reading a Missal is NOT participating in a mass. It is reading, and not really knowing what is going one.
The new translation of the English Mass replaces what was supposed to be a TEMPORARY English version (and a very bad version) of the Mass. The new translation, which was mandated by Blessed John Paul II, much more accurately translates the Latin into English, instead of some version of what somebody THOUGHT it should mean. I mean “Et cum spirito tuo” is NOT translated as “And also with you”. It means, literally, “And with your spirit”, and should always have been translated that way.
Give it a couple of more generations, and the Latin Mass will be gone, a part of history. Even the Pope will not know enough Latin to celebrate a Mass in that language, as it is not taught in the vast majority of Seminaries in the world.
In the meantime, those few that insist on it will continue, for as long as possible, to resist any modernization of the Church. What they do not realize is that it has already happened, and they are slowly being left behind.
While no person on this earth enjoys a traditional Latin Mass more than i do (I do NOT need a Missal for one, and never have), I would hate to see the Church ever go back to it as the standard. Most Catholics did not have a clue what was going on, they went through it as a rote exercise. I know, I converted into that Church as a 9 year old boy (I wasn’t baptized till I was 13).
I learned Latin, on my own, so I COULD understand the Mass. I could never figure out why the vast majority of BORN Catholics didn’t, they didn’t know the beauty and the Majesty of the Mass. (NOTE: I was the only member of my Seminary Class that actually understood every word of the Ordinary and The proper of the Mass, when I went to Sem.)
Sitting there reading a Missal is NOT participating in a mass. It is reading, and not really knowing what is going one.
The new translation of the English Mass replaces what was supposed to be a TEMPORARY English version (and a very bad version) of the Mass. The new translation, which was mandated by Blessed John Paul II, much more accurately translates the Latin into English, instead of some version of what somebody THOUGHT it should mean. I mean “Et cum spirito tuo” is NOT translated as “And also with you”. It means, literally, “And with your spirit”, and should always have been translated that way.
Give it a couple of more generations, and the Latin Mass will be gone, a part of history. Even the Pope will not know enough Latin to celebrate a Mass in that language, as it is not taught in the vast majority of Seminaries in the world.
In the meantime, those few that insist on it will continue, for as long as possible, to resist any modernization of the Church. What they do not realize is that it has already happened, and they are slowly being left behind.
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Will_S
Guest
Old Medic, I sure hope you make it to Heaven, so you can look down in surprise when the “reformed Mass” is abolished.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
All these popes have celebrated the Tridentine mass. Three of them have commanded the allowance of the mass even after it was supposedly “forbidden.” Also, lovely how everyone forgets John Paul I. John XXIII himself actually affirmed that the mass should not (at least completely) be celebrated in the vulgar tongue. I think you’re really, really mistaken to think the church of the past is “dead.” All these poor souls think that some new church sprung up in the middle of the twentieth century.
Participation is internal and personal. It’s so hilarious how some people think that everyone has to have a physical part, as if it’s a school play, to “participate” in mass. And about the Latin. It is CANON LAW that Latin be taught in seminary, although sad to say it’s not taught in the vast majority. Wouldn’t that reasonably imply that Canon Law is thus being broken?
Modernism is bad.
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OraLabora
Guest
Latin will last for a very long time in the Church, courtesy of the monks of Solesmes. They are mandated by the Vatican for the restoration and propagation of Gregorian chant. You can rest assured that they will not let this rich patrimony of the Church die out completely, and even outside Solesmes and the Solesmes congregation there are plenty of medievalists to keep interest alive.
And for those of us with Latin-based mother tongues (in my case, French), Latin isn’t so formidable to learn and even less formidable to read aloud and chant.
You might not hear it very often in parishes anymore, but I would be surprised for someone with the level of education and erudition required to become pope to not understand enough Latin to be able to celebrate a Mass in Latin.
Latin will even continue to be used (gasp!) in the OF Mass, where it is in fact currently celebrated in many places around the world on a daily basis.
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JaMc
Guest
Look at (a) the average age and family size of parishoners at an EF Mass; and (b) the number of men entering FSSP, and other traditional/EF seminaries and orders, and see if you come to the same conclusion. Will the EF ever become the “Ordinary” Form? Maybe not. But simple demographics, if nothing else, will ensure that it endures.
As for the original topic, I think it’s been discussed on here numerous times.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
God says be still and know that I am God. but you say the contrary to what God says.
You should read the interview the Archbishop Ranjih says about those who oppose the Traditional Mass. You really should. he did the interview in 2007. He is not afraid of anyone.
He is the kind of Catholic that we all need.
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Semper_Zelare
Guest
I keep hearing that more and more Seminaries ARE in fact teaching the Extraordinary Form. I say this, as a 19 year old Catholic who never went to a TLM until this year. And, have now been to 4 of them all together. Furthermore, I’ve seen a lot of large families and young children at these. [Looks like Catholics attending these masses don’t have a problem following the Church’s teachings on contraception].
And, I’ve been overjoyed to learn that Alabama now has 5 Churches that celebrate mass in the EO. 5 Churches in the least Catholic state in the country.
If all that anecdotal evidence isn’t enough. Father John Zuhlsdorf posted this recently on his blog:
The facts on the ground suggest that the Latin Mass will be an active part of the Church for some time to come. And, not because of reactionary traditionalists. Pope Benedict XVI said young people who never knew about TLM should be able to hear one if they wish [IE: me]
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Would you please link to this interview? I would like to read it.
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TradionalWay
Guest
Why should the church change to accommodate the people? Isnt it the same church the Jesus Christ implement himself?
For those who are faithful in the Roman Catholic faith, would really go out of there way to understand the mass, we are CELEBRATING our Blessed Lord. Saints grew up with this mass, and we practised it for 2000 years, why change something that nothing was wrong for 2000 years? The mass become like a service of the heretics.
People, see what is going on, Satan crept into the church, we need to be strong against this.
-I much prefer the priest facing in the same direction, instead of having a barrier between us-
For those who are faithful in the Roman Catholic faith, would really go out of there way to understand the mass, we are CELEBRATING our Blessed Lord. Saints grew up with this mass, and we practised it for 2000 years, why change something that nothing was wrong for 2000 years? The mass become like a service of the heretics.
People, see what is going on, Satan crept into the church, we need to be strong against this.
-I much prefer the priest facing in the same direction, instead of having a barrier between us-
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OraLabora
Guest
Um no. We practiced in its current form from the Council of Trent, approx. 500 years ago. There have been many rites in the Western Church since 2000 years, some dead. The Old Roman rite for example. Some such as the Mozarabic rite, continue in very limited use. The Roman Rite of the Mass itself evolved, though the Canon was very similar. The Mozarabic rite goes back to the 7th century.
The EF has its place in the modern Church, nobody is doubting that, and it is very old and goes back to very old sources, but it is the product of evolution, and one can certainly argue that the OF is the product of revolution. But it isn’t correct to say that the EF was celebrated for the past 2000 years, and I suspect if we could transport ourselves back to Trent, those whose rites were supplanted by the Tridentine no doubt also thought the change was a revolution rather than evolution.
It boils down though, to the fact that we now have two approved rites for the Mass (well four, let’s not forget that the Ambrosian and Mozarabic rites are still in existence! And some variations in monastic usage too), and in holy obedience, both sides of the argument need to accept that fact and learn to be more charitable with each other, something this thread risks departing from.
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