Papal Liturgical question

[MooreFamily210]

Howdy! This is our first post here on the forums. We have a burning question…if a Pontiff is elected from a particular Church, or like our Church a liturgical use (Anglican-Use), would the Papal Mass celebrations be changed for them according to their tradition, or would they use the traditional forms?

thanks in advance!

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Welcome! An Anglican-Use cardinal – what an interesting thought. Just a guess, but I believe that papal liturgies are governed by the existing Roman Pontifical, or similar liturgical books, but of course a pope can make changes in the papal liturgies as he sees fit.

 

[MarkThompson]

The Pope belongs to all rites, so he can theoretically celebrate in any of them. I expect he would continue to celebrate most of the time in the Roman Rite (“When in Rome …”), but there aren’t any hard-and-fast rules that would govern such a case.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

There have been Cannon Laws on the Norms for The Mass for over 1500 years; Several rites are recognized. The Pope can Not do whatever he wants; Tradition and Catholic Norms are Always followed. Let’s not forget that The Magesterium: Council of Bishops, has decided Basic issues like Mass since the Apostle’s “Council of Jerusalem” when Judas’ replacement and other basic issues needed to be decided.

 

[Joannm]

Pope Paul VI was the archbishop of Milan before his election so he celebrated the Ambrosian Rite as archbishop. When he became pope he celebrated the Roman Rite.

 

[rkrispies]

Don’t forget the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, which is a Roman Rite diocese. As such, he would be expected to say the Mass according to that rite, regardless of his liturgical “upbringing”. This has been kicked about on these boards for a while, particularly with regards to a hypothetical Eastern Rite bishop being elected Pope. He would still have to say Mass according to the Roman Rite, although he would be permitted to celebrate an Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy or an Anglican Use Mass or an Ambrosian, etc.

 

[MarkThompson]

It’s pretty funny to see people trying to talk about what the Pope would “have to do” and what he would be “permitted to do.”

Um, no.

 

[MooreFamily210]

thanks for the answers, we figured that he would more than likely celebrate the roman rite. it would be cool to see a pope celebrate the divine liturgy!

 

[Oneofthewomen]

It’s pretty funny to see people trying to talk about what the Pope would “have to do” and what he would be “permitted to do.”

Um, no.

I wish you would have elaborated a little bit here, Mark.

It is my understanding that the Chruch functions as an “absolute monarchy” and that the Pope is the “giver of the Law”.
He is not bound by Canon Law, and basically can do as he so chooses,
he does hold “the keys” after all.

And I, for one, don’t want to be the one to tell the Pope he is wrong!

 

[Wesley7]

Old-Rite Traditional Liturgy with Incense.

 

[rkrispies]

It’s pretty funny to see people trying to talk about what the Pope would “have to do” and what he would be “permitted to do.”

Um, no.

A Latin Rite bishop (like the pope) is not automatically permitted to celebrate any rite or use he wishes. It is only by virtue of the pope being the pope that it is licit for him to celebrate a liturgy outside his particular diocesan rite. Thus, he is “permitted” to do as he wishes in that respect. Would he necessarily always have to say either the OF or EF? No. But it is most likely that he would, given that the Diocese of Rome is a Latin Rite diocese.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

A Latin Rite bishop (like the pope) is not automatically permitted to celebrate any rite or use he wishes. It is only by virtue of the pope being the pope that it is licit for him to celebrate a liturgy outside his particular diocesan rite. Thus, he is “permitted” to do as he wishes in that respect. Would he necessarily always have to say either the OF or EF? No. But it is most likely that he would, given that the Diocese of Rome is a Latin Rite diocese.

And the Holy Father is Roman Rites.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

thanks for the answers, we figured that he would more than likely celebrate the roman rite. it would be cool to see a pope celebrate the divine liturgy!

Catholic and Orthodox Bishops have 'co-celebrated', or Participated in many Orthodox and Papal Liturgies//events: all viewable on EWTN. Our Orthodox brotrhers are Close to full communion with the Vatican, as 22 Eastern Rites Orthodox Denominations already are. :byzsoc::signofcross: Will likelly happen again at World Youth Day in Spain soon; great to Watch on EWTN

 

[AntalKalnoky]

I wish you would have elaborated a little bit here, Mark.

It is my understanding that the Chruch functions as an “absolute monarchy” and that the Pope is the “giver of the Law”.
He is not bound by Canon Law, and basically can do as he so chooses,
he does hold “the keys” after all.

And I, for one, don’t want to be the one to tell the Pope he is wrong!

Totally incorrect misunderstanding. The Holy Father is The Practioner of Church Laws and Lives, Teaches Morality to us and the World, as Vicar of Christ. He is opposite of absolute monarch: Is the Servant Of the Lord and His Vicar on Earth. He is the adminstrator, the “Council of Bishops” (Magesterium) works With the Holy Father in Cannon Law and Practise; Tradition (of 2000 years since Christ) is Very strong. The Pope Lives as Christ would and does

 

[malphono]

[post=8200332]Mark[/post] is correct.

Admittedly, it’s rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite but it is theoretically possible. He is technically the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses, freely and at his own discretion. For example, I believe PP Pius XI once publicly celebrated according to the Byzantine Rite (Italo-Greek usage), and John-Paul, IIRC, publicly celebrated according to the Byzantine Rite (Ukrainian usage) at least twice. The same applies to the few surviving non-Roman Western Rites as well.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Howdy! This is our first post here on the forums. We have a burning question…if a Pontiff is elected from a particular Church, or like our Church a liturgical use (Anglican-Use), would the Papal Mass celebrations be changed for them according to their tradition, or would they use the traditional forms?

thanks in advance!

There are a set of liturgical books used for certain papal ceremonies. These include the inauguration of a new papacy and the papal funeral rites. A newly elected Pope would probably follow these although he may make some adaptations. IIRC there was a Byzantine ceremony during Blessed John Paul II’s funeral.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Pope is the “giver of the Law”.
He is not bound by Canon Law, and basically can do as he so chooses …

This is a widely held misconception. The Pope is the supreme legislator for the universal Church. However, he lives and works within the Church’s law not outside it. He is as bound by Divine Law as everyone else.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

But, without infringing on the ordinary power of the bishops, the pope, as head of the episcopate, possesses in himself the same powers as the episcopate united with him. It is true that the disciplinary and legislative power of the popes has not always, in the course of centuries, been exercised in the same manner and to the same extent, but in proportion as the administration became centralized, their direct intervention in legislation became more and more marked; and so the sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals; if he is morally bound to take advice and to follow the dictates of prudence, ***he is not legally obliged to obtain the consent of any other person or persons, or to observe any particular form; his power is limited only by Divine law, natural and positive, dogmatic and moral. Furthermore, he is, so to say, the living law, for he is considered as having all law in the treasury of his heart ***(“in scrinio pectoris”; Boniface VIII. c. i, “De Constit.” in VI).

newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm

This has been the faith of the Church since the time of the Fathers. Observe that it is St. Boniface who explains this. He lived from 680 to 755. This has been in writing for about 1300 years and was believed long before that.

From one of my experts on the subject.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

From one of my experts on the subject.

Where do we disagree?

I did not say the Pope is unable to make, amend or repeal laws. He most certainly can.

You said, or at the very least inferred, that the Pope is himself outside the law. He isn’t and he doesn’t act as if he is.

The expert that you quoted doesn’t say the Pope is outside of the law.