Papal Mass for Cohabitating Couples

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That is what I mean, particularly the *legal *part since, wrt marriage, Canon Law tells us:
Okay, but can we say that the Canon Law applied here removes or reduces the culpability of committing sins of sacrilege against the sacrament itself, assuming, of course, one commits a sin of sacrilege if he or she enters into it with mortal sins on his or her soul? I’m hoping to resolve the issue which seemingly led to your initial post on this thread.
 
Okay, but can we say that the Canon Law applied here removes or reduces the culpability of committing sins of sacrilege against the sacrament itself
I have no reason to say that it does.

tee
 
The Church is like a doctor, who genuinely loves his patients, including those who smoke. The doctor sometimes causes stress - some people call it negativity - when he urges his patients to stop smoking. The doctor doesn’t blame or nag smokers; he knows they have been largely hooked by the pervasive culture that encouraged this habit. He recognizes their positives - they exercise, they may be eating right, they care for their families,they work; so he doesn’t harp on this one thing only. He knows smoking isn’t the worse thing they could do. But he does know it harms them, so the good doctor won’t keep silent.

We would not respect a doctor who tells us only things that make us feel nice, because he doesn’t want to lose business to Doctor Feelgood down the street. We want a doctor who looks at the whole picture, and tells it to us straight, even when there are certain aspects of ourselves that need to change - for our own long term happiness. Better a little stress in the doctor’s office (or pulpit), than a whole lot of stress down the road if we fail to make needed changes now.

Many people want their church to become like Doctor Feelgood, who tells patients whatever they want to hear, omitting anything that suggests the need for them to change. Some whole denominations have become Feelgood, omitting any absolutes of dogma or morality, censoring anything that suggests conversion. Mainline churches are now an extension of Huffington Post or CNN, the world of “what’s trending now”.

Some people in the Feelgood churches are converting to Catholicism, because it’s not afraid to speak the truth, like the good doctor. The Church teaches the Truth, not the trends. Francis reminds us this truth needs to be spoken in love, and of course he’s right.
 
Cohabitation is seen as “living in sin.” Is it possible to go to confession, move out of the house or apartment for a few days or weeks, and then get married?
Perhaps someone has already responded. BUT cohabitation is not sin. Fornication is sin, but that is not the same thing as cohabitation. Cohabitation is certainly not prudent, but we have to be very careful in not simply saying that cohabitation is sin simply because it usually is accompanied by sin.
 
Semantics.

I can argue that I “can” eat meat on Good Friday and openly flout it in public, meaning it’s physically possible to do it, but it won’t change that it’s against Church current law and people should not be ignoring me.
Only its not against Church law to baptize someone in mortal sin. Just how is someone in mortal sin supposed to get out of mortal sin without being baptized? They can’t go to Confession, because they haven’t been baptized, but you think they shouldn’t be baptized because they’re in mortal sin.

Thank goodness the Church doesn’t actually teach this or I would have been screwed and would never been able to be saved.
 
I was responding to another’s assertion that *mortal sin …, if you haven’t confessed them yet *bars one from the sacraments.

It was my intention to question that assertion. To my knowledge, it is not the case that *mortal sin …, if you haven’t confessed them yet *bars anyone from the sacraments.

tee
I believe that unconfessed mortal sin only bars one from confirmation, eucharist, marriage, and holy orders.
 
Perhaps someone has already responded. BUT cohabitation is not sin. Fornication is sin, but that is not the same thing as cohabitation. Cohabitation is certainly not prudent, but we have to be very careful in not simply saying that cohabitation is sin simply because it usually is accompanied by sin.
Well, there is also scandal (bad example) to be considered, whether one actually engages in the sex act or not, isn’t there? So far there has been little mention of that. I’m not judging and not a moral theologian, however, but when the cohabitation is open and flouted, can we just ignore it and encourage other couples to do the same?
 
Only its not against Church law to baptize someone in mortal sin.
It’s not against Church law to baptize anyone. But, if you go back to reading some of the posts, we were talking about whether it was prudent for a priest to baptize one who is persistent on cohabiting and not abstaining from all sexual activity.
 
I’m going to address a few misconceptions on the part of some people on this thread, not everyone.

Cohabitation is not a canonical impairment to marriage. Therefore, any deacon or priest can marry a couple who is cohabitating, provided that the couple has no canonical impairment.

Confession is not a prerequisite for the Sacrament of Matrimony. Confession belongs with the Sacraments of Christian Initiation. Matrimony is not part of that set. If confession were a requirement, then a non-Catholic could not marry a Catholic in a Catholic liturgy. Canonically speaking, one can get married in a state of mortal sin and if there is no canonical impediment, the marriage is both valid and sacramental. Canon law rules here, not moral theology. The only sacrament that cannot be received in a state of mortal sin is the Eucharist. It is preferred that a person not be in a state of mortal sin, but it is not a requirement and has never been, except for the reception of Communion.

The article does not mention that any of these folks went to confession, because even if they did, you and I have no right to know this. Please stop bringing up that we don’t know if they went to confession. It is not our right to know. Confession is between the penitent, the confessor and God. Even the clergyman witnessing the wedding has no right to know if the couple went to confession.

The Sacraments of Christian Initiation are not a requirement for a valid marriage. Muslims, Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus and others have marriages just as valid as Catholics do.

The Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for a sacramental marriage, which is not the same as a valid marriage. All sacramental marriages are valid; but not all valid marriages are sacramental. Yet, validity is what makes a marriage indissoluble, not the grace of the sacrament.

Finally, the pope is not saying a mass for people who cohabitate. He’s celebrating a mass during which he will witness some marriages. The mass and the marriages are not interconnected. The one is independent of the other. The Church prefers that if one of the two parties is Catholic, that the marriage be witnessed during a mass, but it is not law. The fact is that the pope is celebrating a mass at which he will witness the marriage of X number of Catholics. I don’t know the number, because the number of couples does not mean that both persons in the couple are Catholic. Only one needs to be Catholic, both need to be free of impediments.
 
The Church is like a doctor, who genuinely loves his patients, including those who smoke. The doctor sometimes causes stress - some people call it negativity - when he urges his patients to stop smoking. The doctor doesn’t blame or nag smokers; he knows they have been largely hooked by the pervasive culture that encouraged this habit. He recognizes their positives - they exercise, they may be eating right, they care for their families,they work; so he doesn’t harp on this one thing only. He knows smoking isn’t the worse thing they could do. But he does know it harms them, so the good doctor won’t keep silent.

We would not respect a doctor who tells us only things that make us feel nice, because he doesn’t want to lose business to Doctor Feelgood down the street. We want a doctor who looks at the whole picture, and tells it to us straight, even when there are certain aspects of ourselves that need to change - for our own long term happiness. Better a little stress in the doctor’s office (or pulpit), than a whole lot of stress down the road if we fail to make needed changes now.

Many people want their church to become like Doctor Feelgood, who tells patients whatever they want to hear, omitting anything that suggests the need for them to change. Some whole denominations have become Feelgood, omitting any absolutes of dogma or morality, censoring anything that suggests conversion. Mainline churches are now an extension of Huffington Post or CNN, the world of “what’s trending now”.

Some people in the Feelgood churches are converting to Catholicism, because it’s not afraid to speak the truth, like the good doctor. The Church teaches the Truth, not the trends. Francis reminds us this truth needs to be spoken in love, and of course he’s right.
Saying it out loud just to complete the analogy

In the same way that it would be counterproductive for the church to become like Doctor Feelgood, so it would be counterproductive for the church to go against her own loving nature, and refuse to treat “smokers” (even if some of her “patients” wish that she would do so).

tee
 
The Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for a sacramental marriage, which is not the same as a valid marriage. All sacramental marriages are valid; but not all valid marriages are sacramental. Yet, validity is what makes a marriage indissoluble, not the grace of the sacrament.
This is not my understanding. The Church teaches that consummation makes a sacramental marriage indissoluble. Both the unconsummated sacramental marriage and the valid-but-not-sacramental marriage (consummated or not) are able to be dissolved.

PS. Confession belongs with the sacraments of healing, not the sacraments of initiation.

tee
 
This is not my understanding. The Church teaches that consummation makes a sacramental marriage indissoluble. Both the unconsummated sacramental marriage and the valid-but-not-sacramental marriage (consummated or not) are able to be dissolved.

PS. Confession belongs with the sacraments of healing, not the sacraments of initiation.

tee
The marriage is neither valid nor a sacrament, if it’s not consummated. Without the marital act, it’s two people vowing to do something, but never getting started. If they never get started, there is no marriage.

The three sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. I think I put confession where I wanted to say confirmation. However, confession is not required for marriage. That was the point that I was driving at. Thank you for the correction. I appreciate it. 🙂

That’s that last of that. I’m not here to debate with people. I don’t have long to live. I’ll teach and those who want to learn and those who don’t want to learn don’t have to do so. But I will not engage. Thank you.
 
That’s that last of that. I’m not here to debate with people. I don’t have long to live. I’ll teach and those who want to learn and those who don’t want to learn don’t have to do so. But I will not engage. Thank you.
Thank you. I appreciate your position and your teaching. I hope in your limited time you would teach the truth. What you write below is not the truth taught by the Church.
The marriage is neither valid nor a sacrament, if it’s not consummated. Without the marital act, it’s two people vowing to do something, but never getting started. If they never get started, there is no marriage.
The Church teaches that a valid (and, between the baptized, sacramental) marriage exists even in the absence of consummation. (cf. Canons 1061 and 1142).

tee
 
I don’t have long to live. I’ll teach and those who want to learn and those who don’t want to learn don’t have to do so. But I will not engage. Thank you.
But you are one of my teachers (along with GKC and JonNC, and others), and my training is far from complete! I continue to require relevant information, charitably presented. My prayer is that your days are numbered more than expected, and as much as I want your posts to read here, that you spend your days in relaxation and prayer here, rather than on the Internet. I can always read your old posts.

I am sure in Heaven they won’t need you in this function, but they have something more important in mind. Sto Lat!
 
The Church teaches that a valid (and, between the baptized, sacramental) marriage exists even in the absence of consummation. (cf. Canons 1061 and 1142).

tee
We must read the canons very carefully.

**Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated;

it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

§2. After a marriage has been celebrated, if the spouses have lived together consummation is presumed until the contrary is proven.**

Ratum tantum means ratified only. We presume validity, because we presume that it will be consummated and that if it’s not consummated, it would be because of some very legitimate reason.

The most famous case that I can remember of a marriage that was “rantum tantum” was that of Catherine of Arragon and Prince Arthur.

When we read section 2 we see something else under the onion skin.

If a marriage were indissoluble, from the moment that the vows are made, then there is no need examine if it was ever consummated. Validity is assumed.

Can. 1142 For a just cause, the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a non-baptized party at the request of both parties or of one of them, even if the other party is unwilling.

We must also look at another canon.

**Can. 1057 §1. The consent of the parties, legitimately manifested between persons qualified by law, makes marriage; no human power is able to supply this consent.

§2. Matrimonial consent is an act of the will by which a man and a woman mutually give and accept each other through an irrevocable covenant in order to establish marriage.**

1057.1 is pretty self-explanatory. No one can consent for another person.

1057.2 has something that in Roman law must be properly nuanced. It tells us that the couple give and accept in order to establish marriage

Hence it is ratified only. Because all we have is the consent and we assume the good faith of the partners to consummate the marriage. This leads to Canon 1142.

Can. 1142 For a just cause, the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage . . .

Observe that it says “non-consummated”. Once it’s consummated, even the Pontiff cannot dissolve it. The marriage bond is sealed in the consummation, provided there is no canonical impediment to the marriage. It’s important to observe that Can 1142 calls it a “non-consummated marriage” not a valid marriage or sacramental marriage. The canon refers to the marriage by what it is not. It makes no assumption of validity. Why not? Because it if were valid just by the vows, would the pope have the authority to dissolve a valid marriage?

If memory serves me correct, Henry tried to argue that he and Catherine were not validly married, because she was his lawful sister-in-law, which would make their marriage incestuous. The Church did not accept this. She came to Henry a virgin, which meant that she only appeared to be his sister-in-law. Her marriage to Arthur was only ratified, never consummated. She and Henry were free to enter into a marriage. A marriage between in-laws is incest, even today. They were not in-laws.

We must also be very careful when we try to teach about marriage using only Canon Law alone. Because Canon Law does not apply to the all Catholics. Let’s look at Canon 1

Can. 1 The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church.

Since we cannot always depend on Canon Law to speak for the universal Church, we must look to another authoritative sources that speak for and to the universal Church. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we read.

2388 Incest designates intimate relations between relatives or in-laws within a degree that prohibits marriage between them.

**1640 Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, **

Then we read

1662 Marriage is based on the consent of the contracting parties, that is, on their will to give themselves, each to the other, mutually and definitively, in order to live a covenant of faithful and fruitful love.

What we’re seeing is the Church ratifies the marriage as valid at the time of the exchange of assuming that there is every intention to consummate the marriage to the extent that it’s possible. The logical conclusion is that the Church requires consent (vows) and consummation for validity. She trusts those making the marriage vows and only ratifies the marriage as valid. Once it’s consummated, the deed is done and even the Bishop of Rome cannot undo it. It is ratified and consummated.

I’m not a canon lawyer, so don’t take this stuff to the bank. I’m only applying the methods of reading canon law that we were taught in the seminary. In addition, I have never read the Code of Canon Law for the Oriental Churches. I think it would be interesting to see what that code says about marriage. I don’t mean doctrinally. The dogma on marriage is universal. I’m referring to the legal aspects of marriage.

Thank you for your attention and for putting up with my rambling above. I have not done this in a long time. As I said, I’m not a lawyer. I’m a superior. My area of Canon Law is everything about consecrated life and societies of apostolic life.
 
I have not read the article either, but I think what the Pope is doing is a great idea. I’m sure that the couples in the group marriage ceremony had to do proper preparation, such as making sure they were free to marry, etc.

It seems to me that the last time I was in California, I saw in a church bulletin that a similar ceremony was being planned.

I think that some couples don’t get married because it is just so darn expensive. To me, the sacrament of marriage seems far removed from the other sacraments. People are baptized and confirmed in groups. Why do marriages have to be only one couple at a time?

Just think, the church could have a reception with cake and coffee afterwards just like they do at Easter Vigil when people enter the church. Look at the thousands of dollars the couple would save!
 
I have not read the article either, but I think what the Pope is doing is a great idea. I’m sure that the couples in the group marriage ceremony had to do proper preparation, such as making sure they were free to marry, etc.

It seems to me that the last time I was in California, I saw in a church bulletin that a similar ceremony was being planned.

I think that some couples don’t get married because it is just so darn expensive. To me, the sacrament of marriage seems far removed from the other sacraments. People are baptized and confirmed in groups. Why do marriages have to be only one couple at a time?

Just think, the church could have a reception with cake and coffee afterwards just like they do at Easter Vigil when people enter the church. Look at the thousands of dollars the couple would save!
Something worth considering. Now you’re thinking like me. 😃

Were you taught by Benedictines by any chance?
 
I just read an article in the Catholic Review that Our Holy Father, Pope Francis, will preside at a Papal Mass and wedding ceremony for couples who have been cohabitating and couples who already have children.

The article went on to say “while cohabitating is not in itself a canonical impediment to marriage, it is contrary to the church’s teaching on marriage and sexual love.”

I am completely confused by this latest news from Rome. I have always been taught that a man and woman living together outside of marriage are committing the sin of fornication. Why, all of a sudden, is this not still a fact?:confused:

Nothing is said in the long article about these couples going to Confession and repenting for this (IMHO) terrible sin.

Is the Catholic Church I grew up with now changing its policy on marriage. Is it now okay to just “live together” and forget about it?🤷

Very soon I am afraid we will hear that same sex marriage is now permitted in the Catholic Church.:eek:

:knight1:

I would appreciate some reasonable answers, please.
I have not read most of the responses to this original post, but I will say this:
  1. It is NONE of our business as to weather someone went to confession or not. That is between God and themselves.
  2. God is a merciful God. If we are truly sorry for the sins of our past, and repent (including a valid confession) we will and are forgiven…even if beautiful children have resulted from such sins.
  3. In what way do you see the Church changing it’s policy on marriage and/or same sex “marriage”? There is NOTHING the Church stating or even coming close to indicating this.
  4. We cannot judge the current state of other’s souls based upon their past sins. (as you seem to be doing with these people) This is for GOD alone to do.
 
  1. It is NONE of our business as to weather someone went to confession or not. That is between God and themselves.
One should wonder then why the subject of cohabiting was even brought up in the first place. Was it necessary to bring this (what I’ve always considered gossip anyway) up on a day which should be a cause for celebration and not persecution?
 
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