Papal Prerogatives revisited

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JohnVIII said:
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The Council Fathers at Nicaea were aware, in addition to according the primacy of honor to Rome, that they could not make decisions binding for the whole Church without the agreement of the See of Rome. This is support for the Vatican I papal infallability dogma. Considering the three roles of bishops in the Church, universal, regional, and local, there is certainly support for the local authority of the bishops on local matters.

The diocesan bishop is the highest in ordinary power (potestas ordinis). Sanctification, teaching, and governing are the three ministries of a bishop. The bishop’s extend to his diocese/eparchy, and the Pope to the universal Church as well as his diocese of Rome. The arguments seem to mostly be about jurisdictional rather than ordinary power, yet in Catholic law, ordinary power trumps jurisdictional power, and the Pope can make law binding on all, especially since some functions are universal (Roman Curia) not specific to one of the 23 Churches sui iuris.
  1. Universal
    The Pope
  2. Patriarchial, Major Archiepiscopal, Metropolitan
    (Examples: Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Major Archbishop of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Armenian Catholic Patriarch, Latin Metropolitan Archbishop of Gniezo Poland)
  3. Diocese/Eparchy
It will be interesting to read the opinions of the 12th plenary meeting of the Joint Coordinating Committee* that will be hosted by Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, in Vienna, Austria, from 20-27 September 2010.
  • Joint Coordinating Committee for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church
 
Shiranui117 said:
I believe he is mentioning the various Sui Iuris churches, of Western, Eastern and Oriental traditions, that make up the full communion (or body, if you like) of the Catholic Church (such as RomanCC, MelkiteCC, RuthenianCC, etc.)
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I enjoy the research and learning. Any chance you know where I can read a list of all these churches? And thanks for the info!
 
jimmy said:
I am done arguing but I will just point out that I haven’t supported either the low or the high petrine view. I really don’t have any problem with either one. My only problem is with the fact that the absolute petrine view is the reality.

malphono, I would agree with what you said.
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More Catholic Denominations, in addition to those “23 churches” as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, eh? 🙂
 
Protestant101 said:
More Catholic Denominations, in addition to those “23 churches” as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, eh? 🙂
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Except our Churchs doctrinally agree, rather than disagree. Thus there are no denominations as such, rather there are many rites, indeed even churches with seperate governence who all doctrinally agree, and still defer to Rome for the authoratative teaching particularly if a squable should arise.
 
I am very late coming to this discussion, but I wanted to mention that the debate put forward by Mardukm is explained in great detail by the emminent theologian, Rev. Hermann Pottmeyer. Father Pottmeyer is a member of the ITC and is a well known ecclesiologist.

He develops his theology in his book titled, Towards a Papacy in Communion. In his book, he goes into great detail about the development of the papacy in teh first and second millenium, how the definitions in Vatican I are seen in their historical perspective, and how the absolute papal monarch is but one interpretation of the theology of the supremacy of the papacy, but is not the only one, nor does Vatican I need to be seen today in that same light. I highly recommend this to anyone looking for a scholarly source on the theology of the Pope.

amazon.com/Towards-Papacy-Communion-Unim-Sint/dp/0824517768/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283456248&sr=1-1
 
Protestant101 said:
More Catholic Denominations, in addition to those “23 churches” as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, eh? 🙂
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The Catholic Church, with it’s head, the Roman Pope, consists of 23 churches each with different Rites and Traditions (and by the way most of them not having mandatory celibacy which you protestants complain about the whole time). The biggest of these churches being the Roman Catholic Church.

They all submit to the authority of the Pope of Rome and are doctrinally united with each other.
 
Dear Gunslinger Saints,

First of all, with respect to your post - 👍

The real beauty of the Catholic Church lies in her ritual/theological variety - within the framework of Catholic unity!

The Latin Catholic Church has brought back her ancient Tridentine Rite and may it continue to grow and be used throughout (if anything, I see young RC’s absolutely smitten by it - traditional Tridentine seminaries are full and is it any wonder?)

In the West, Rome has also brought back the Mozarabic Rite of Spain which was formerly limited to Toledo only - all of Catholic Spaini now has the privilege of using the Mozarabic liturgy. Italy herself has three Rites - Roman, Milanese (which is in a number of ways closer to the Byzantine Rite) and the Italo-Greek - not to mention the “city Rites” of a number of Italian cities (I don’t know if they are still extant).

The Catholic Church has no problem making room for the Anglican Rite and there are Lutherans who would like to be in union with Rome while maintaining their “cultural Lutheranism.” I can’t imagine that if the Methodists, for example, wished to set up a Methodist Order in union with Rome that the Catholic church would have too much to argue over it.

In the Antiochian Orthodox Church, there are four Rites, as far as I can tell. The traditional Byzantine, the Western Rites (Anglican and Gregorian) and an adapted Byzantine Rite for Evangelicals - the former “Evangelical Orthodox Church.”

Orthodox Russia has always had two Rites - Nikonian and Old and both of these are recognized now on an equal level by the Moscow Patriarchate. The Russians have also had a mission to the Assyrians (who are called “Nestorians”) and have allowed their Rite to stand when Assyrians come into union with Moscow (the “Third Rome?”).

Presbyterians might be happy to know that their traditions come close to those of the ancient Celtic Church (see www.celticchristianity.org )

Then there are the Hebrew Catholics and also local cultural adaptations of the Church’s rites . . .

All good, I say!

Alex
 
the Tridentine Rite, is in no way, an “ancient rite”. In fact, that Rite did confirm many medieval additions to the liturgy. That is one of the fallacies in arguments used for those who prefer the Tridentine rite and say that the revised rite is unfaithful to the Tradition. It begs the question, what is the most ancient Tradition of the Latin Rite.

Fr. Keith Pecklers, SJ, talks about the development of the Latin Rite liturgy in his recent book, “The Genius of the Roman Rite, on the reception and Implementation of the New Missal.”

amazon.com/Genius-Roman-Rite-Reception-Implementation/dp/0814660215
 
Dear Dan-Man,

In no way do I wish to place one rite over another - that is simply not my intention.

I’ve read arguments all over for both rites and I’ve read the source you give. I personally prefer a liturgy that is done well - I would prefer a Novus Ordo done with reverence over a Tridentine Low Mass done hurriedly etc.

My purpose was to simply point to the liturgical variety as part of the riches of Christ in the Catholic Church.

Alex
 
Have a great weekend, Friend in Christ!

I will fly the flag of Chicago at my in-laws’ cottage in your honour! (Love flags, period)

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
In the West, Rome has also brought back the Mozarabic Rite of Spain which was formerly limited to Toledo only - all of Catholic Spaini now has the privilege of using the Mozarabic liturgy.
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The Mozarabic Rite was not “brought back” since it was never suppressed. It was, however, restored in recent years. In any case, the issue of its use today is not nearly as simple as it might seem. The Benedictine Abbey of Santo Domingo de Silos is, I think, the only place outside of Toledo which has requested – and been granted – indult to follow the Mozarabic Rite on a perpetual basis.
Alexander_Roman said:
Italy herself has three Rites - Roman, Milanese (which is in a number of ways closer to the Byzantine Rite) and the Italo-Greek - not to mention the “city Rites” of a number of Italian cities (I don’t know if they are still extant).
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(a) The “Milanese” is actually the Ambrosian Rite, and encompasses the ancient ecclesiastical Province of Milan.

(b) Italo-Greek (aka Italo-Albanian) as a rite is not Western: it is purely Byzantine. It is, as well, considered a Church sui juris.

(c) The so-called “city rites” in Italy are long suppressed, although some local devotional and para-liturgical customs do remain.
 
malphono said:
Interesting point. Historically, in the Middle East at least, it was common for kings to assume (and flaunt!) the title “servant of the people” despite the fact that they were absolute monarchs.
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He is a servant of the Allmighty and a communicator of God’s laws to the rest of mankind.
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Dear Gunslinger Saints,

First of all, with respect to your post - 👍

The real beauty of the Catholic Church lies in her ritual/theological variety - within the framework of Catholic unity!

The Latin Catholic Church has brought back her ancient Tridentine Rite and may it continue to grow and be used throughout (if anything, I see young RC’s absolutely smitten by it - traditional Tridentine seminaries are full and is it any wonder?)

In the West, Rome has also brought back the Mozarabic Rite of Spain which was formerly limited to Toledo only - all of Catholic Spaini now has the privilege of using the Mozarabic liturgy. Italy herself has three Rites - Roman, Milanese (which is in a number of ways closer to the Byzantine Rite) and the Italo-Greek - not to mention the “city Rites” of a number of Italian cities (I don’t know if they are still extant).

The Catholic Church has no problem making room for the Anglican Rite and there are Lutherans who would like to be in union with Rome while maintaining their “cultural Lutheranism.” I can’t imagine that if the Methodists, for example, wished to set up a Methodist Order in union with Rome that the Catholic church would have too much to argue over it.

In the Antiochian Orthodox Church, there are four Rites, as far as I can tell. The traditional Byzantine, the Western Rites (Anglican and Gregorian) and an adapted Byzantine Rite for Evangelicals - the former “Evangelical Orthodox Church.”

Orthodox Russia has always had two Rites - Nikonian and Old and both of these are recognized now on an equal level by the Moscow Patriarchate. The Russians have also had a mission to the Assyrians (who are called “Nestorians”) and have allowed their Rite to stand when Assyrians come into union with Moscow (the “Third Rome?”).

Presbyterians might be happy to know that their traditions come close to those of the ancient Celtic Church (see www.celticchristianity.org )

Then there are the Hebrew Catholics and also local cultural adaptations of the Church’s rites . . .

All good, I say!

Alex
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Splendid 🙂
 
Lets see now…23 Catholic denominations; with all their off-shoots. That should equal about what Protestants have.
 
Protestant101 said:
Lets see now…23 Catholic denominations; with all their off-shoots. That should equal about what Protestants have.
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You don’t seem to understand, they are not denominations. They are different sections of the same church. They are all one Catholic Church under the authority of the Roman Pontiff.

Like one body with different parts (eyes, limbs etc. )

They profess exactly the same dogmas. They have intercommunion, this means Roman Catholics can go to a Greek-Catholic church and vice versa. Or a Coptic-Catholic can go and receive confession in a Syriac-Catholic church.
 
Protestant101 said:
Lets see now…23 Catholic denominations; with all their off-shoots. That should equal about what Protestants have.
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Hoping to make protestantism look better are you? The 23 Catholic “rites” are united in faith and communion. I might add, in Eastern Orthodoxy there are 15 jurisdictions united in faith and communion. And Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxy are talking about re-union. Would you care to compare this to over 1000 denominations in Protestantism that are not all united in faith and communion?

Jesus prayed that all who believe may be one (John 17). God will not ask anything that He will not provide a way for it to be accomplished. He said, “Upon this Rock I will build My Church”. The Key to being united is the Keys of the Kingdom which Christ gave to St Peter and St Peter passed down to the Bishops of Rome. :yup:
 
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