Papal Primacy and the East

[jj2011]

After viewing the debates on this subject I thought it might be useful to post documents about the Roman primacy as it relates to the Christian East.

The first entry is the correspondence between the monks of Syria Secunda and Pope St. Hormisdas in the early sixth century. The context is the severe persecution of the Orthodox during the period of the Henoticon of 482. Rome then acted to depose Acacius, the patriarch of Constantinople.

Persecution of the Orthodox continued throughout the East, but ended at Constantinople with the imposition of the formula of Pope Hormisdas in 519. This correspondence is between Pope Hormisdas and monks of Syria Secunda, of the Syro-Maronite tradition.

mari.org/JMS/october97/The_Correspondence_Between.htm

 

[XtusVictor]

After viewing the debates on this subject I thought it might be useful to post documents about the Roman primacy as it relates to the Christian East.

The first entry is the correspondence between the monks of Syria Secunda and Pope St. Hormisdas in the early sixth century. The context is the severe persecution of the Orthodox during the period of the Henoticon of 482. Rome then acted to depose Acacius, the patriarch of Constantinople.

Persecution of the Orthodox continued throughout the East, but ended at Constantinople with the imposition of the formula of Pope Hormisdas in 519. This correspondence is between Pope Hormisdas and monks of Syria Secunda, of the Syro-Maronite tradition.

mari.org/JMS/october97/The_Correspondence_Between.htm

Thanks, jj, very interesting. The East has always been stubborn, but nice to know they had moments of clarity.

 

[jj2011]

The whole post-Chalcedonian period was a turbulent one, and matters didn’t improve when emperors like Zeno tried to unite pro and anti-Chalcedonians by a purported decree of unity called the Henoticon, which I consider one of the earliest cases of the syndrome of false ecumenism.

This article, complete with documents translated directly from the Collectio Avellana, explains the ramifications of the formula which Pope St. Hormisdas imposed on the Byzantine east, a formula which effectively ended the 35 year Acacian schism.

ancientpapacy.org/articles/acacianschism.htm

 

[XtusVictor]

The whole post-Chalcedonian period was a turbulent one, and matters didn’t improve when emperors like Zeno tried to unite pro and anti-Chalcedonians by a purported decree of unity called the Henoticon, which I consider one of the earliest cases of the syndrome of false ecumenism.

This article, complete with documents translated directly from the Collectio Avellana, explains the ramifications of the formula which Pope St. Hormisdas imposed on the Byzantine east, a formula which effectively ended the 35 year Acacian schism.

ancientpapacy.org/articles/acacianschism.htm

The weakness of Eastern Christianity in holding the Orthodox position is one of the reasons they converted to Islam so easily.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The weakness of Eastern Christianity in holding the Orthodox position is one of the reasons they converted to Islam so easily.

And you explain what happened to North Africa, the real home of Latin Christianity (Tertullian, Pope Victor, St. Augustine, etc.) how?

The Christians didn’t lose there majority in the Middle East until the Crusades.

And there are plenty of historical records of Christian populations leaving the caliphate to settle in the Roman empire. Many ended up in the Balkans. This also includes Arab Christian tribes (the caliphs in particular demanded their return, e.g. the tribe of Iyad), and populations of Muslims that converted to Orthodoxy (yes, the record shows that did happen).

 

[yeshua]

The weakness of Eastern Christianity in holding the Orthodox position is one of the reasons they converted to Islam so easily.

**You really must stop littering this sub forum with your Anti-Eastern and Oriental insults. **

Realize that every time you call Melkites anti-Roman, you are being anti-Catholic, and every time you make such awful remarks like above, you are insulting millions of members of your own Church and their ancestors. Not only are your words and intents against forum policy and can subject you to moderator action (and yes, complaints have been filed), but also grossly un-Christian for this Season, or any time of the year.

I am so angered by this comment that what would come out of my mouth next would be far too uncharitable.

 

[XtusVictor]

**You really must stop littering this sub forum with your Anti-Eastern and Oriental insults. **

Realize that every time you call Melkites anti-Roman, you are being anti-Catholic, and every time you make such awful remarks like above, you are insulting millions of members of your own Church and their ancestors. Not only are your words and intents against forum policy and can subject you to moderator action (and yes, complaints have been filed), but also grossly un-Christian for this Season, or any time of the year.

I am so angered by this comment that what would come out of my mouth next would be far too uncharitable.

Still, no one has explained how the Melkite position makes any sense. How can the teaching on infallibility be a matter of only regional teaching? That is relativism.

 

[XtusVictor]

And you explain what happened to North Africa, the real home of Latin Christianity (Tertullian, Pope Victor, St. Augustine, etc.) how?

The Christians didn’t lose there majority in the Middle East until the Crusades.

And there are plenty of historical records of Christian populations leaving the caliphate to settle in the Roman empire. Many ended up in the Balkans. This also includes Arab Christian tribes (the caliphs in particular demanded their return, e.g. the tribe of Iyad), and populations of Muslims that converted to Orthodoxy (yes, the record shows that did happen).

The point is that the East was so consumed with battles over Orthodoxy such as iconoclasm, monophysitism, nestorianism, squabbles with Rome, etc. that the discontent weakened Orthodoxy and made conversion to Islam much easier.

Latin north aftrica was weakened by military conquests by the visigoths and others. The Latins fell for military reasons. The East for more theological reasons.

 

[jj2011]

Everybody,

I am interested in comments on this thread, provided that they are related to the articles and documents on the subject.

Thoughtful analysis, rather than polemics, is what I’m looking to see here.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The point is that the East was so consumed with battles over Orthodoxy such as iconoclasm, monophysitism, nestorianism, squabbles with Rome, etc. that the discontent weakened Orthodoxy and made conversion to Islam much easier.

Latin north aftrica was weakened by military conquests by the visigoths and others. The Latins fell for military reasons. The East for more theological reasons.

Care to put any historical meat on that theoretical bone?

As I stated, the Christian majority remained for centuries after the rise of Islam. And a lot of the decrease was emmigration, on top of killing/martyrdom.

Btw, who drove the Visigoths out?

 

[XtusVictor]

Care to put any historical meat on that theoretical bone?

As I stated, the Christian majority remained for centuries after the rise of Islam. And a lot of the decrease was emmigration, on top of killing/martyrdom.

Btw, who drove the Visigoths out?

The East which had demoralized the West with its hellenizations and excessive taxation as well as its own infighting was easy prey for Islamic conversion.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The East which had demoralized the West with its hellenizations and excessive taxation as well as its own infighting was easy prey for Islamic conversion.

I can’t tell: is this an answer?

 

[marlo]

Excellent document !!!, this shows that the maronite church has always saw the Pope as the Head of the Church and was always in communion with him.

After viewing the debates on this subject I thought it might be useful to post documents about the Roman primacy as it relates to the Christian East.

The first entry is the correspondence between the monks of Syria Secunda and Pope St. Hormisdas in the early sixth century. The context is the severe persecution of the Orthodox during the period of the Henoticon of 482. Rome then acted to depose Acacius, the patriarch of Constantinople.

Persecution of the Orthodox continued throughout the East, but ended at Constantinople with the imposition of the formula of Pope Hormisdas in 519. This correspondence is between Pope Hormisdas and monks of Syria Secunda, of the Syro-Maronite tradition.

mari.org/JMS/october97/The_Correspondence_Between.htm

 

[yeshua]

Excellent document !!!, this shows that the maronite church has always saw the Pope as the Head of the Church and was always in communion with him.

(Slaps hand on forehead and shakes…)

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Excellent document !!!, this shows that the maronite church has always saw the Pope as the Head of the Church and was always in communion with him.

Yes, later on it would be in communion with Pope Honorius.

Of course, that caused a problem with Popes Leo, which still had to be addressed at Florence:

Then our beloved son in Christ Isaac, envoy of our venerable brother Elias, bishop of the Maronites, on his behalf and in his name, rejecting the heresy of Macarius about one will in Christ, made with great veneration a profession that was similar in all details.

 

[Arthur22124]

Yes, later on it would be in communion with Pope Honorius.

Of course, that caused a problem with Popes Leo, which still had to be addressed at Florence:

Then our beloved son in Christ Isaac, envoy of our venerable brother Elias, bishop of the Maronites, on his behalf and in his name, rejecting the heresy of Macarius about one will in Christ, made with great veneration a profession that was similar in all details.

I really think this is an unattractive and inappropriate tone for a conversation between Christians. We really ought to converse with one another with a humble, kind and Christ-like manner. It is almost the Christmas season and it is terrible to read posts with this tone. Please take it down a notch or two.

Merry Christmas and God Bless you.

 

[jimmy]

Still, no one has explained how the Melkite position makes any sense. How can the teaching on infallibility be a matter of only regional teaching? That is relativism.

You have recieved a perfectly clear explanation of the Melkite position. It is your anti eastern perspective that prevents you from seeing it.

 

[marlo]

as long as they viewed the Pope of Rome as head of the Church on earth, their’s no difference, the EO should start accepting this also.

Yes, later on it would be in communion with Pope Honorius.

Of course, that caused a problem with Popes Leo, which still had to be addressed at Florence:

Then our beloved son in Christ Isaac, envoy of our venerable brother Elias, bishop of the Maronites, on his behalf and in his name, rejecting the heresy of Macarius about one will in Christ, made with great veneration a profession that was similar in all details.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

as long as they viewed the Pope of Rome as head of the Church on earth, their’s no difference, the EO should start accepting this also.

Soooo viewing a heretic as Pope Honorius as head of the Church on earth no difference from a defender of Orthodoxy like Pope St. Leo?

No, we will never accept this.

 

[marlo]

did pope honorius declared a heresy? Nope he did not, He still the head of the church in his time. No worries, your loss.

Soooo viewing a heretic as Pope Honorius as head of the Church on earth no difference from a defender of Orthodoxy like Pope St. Leo?

No, we will never accept this.