Papal Succession - removing the Pope?

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i was teaching Catechism yesterday regarding Holy Orders and while tackling the subject of Bishops and the Pope being a Bishop, one of my students asked if the Pope can be removed from his office. i know a Pope can step down if he feels he is unable to fulfill his duties, due to health or other reasons. but what if a Pope becomes uncapable but he doesn’t realize it (becomes senile due to age perhaps?), can he be removed? and who makes this decision, is it still the College of Cardinals?
 
From what I’ve been told, not 100% sure on this though, is that if something would happen where the Pope be comes incapable and he doesn’t realize it, that the College of Cardinals would shut him out of the public light, and make it impossible for him to make any altering decision, etc. The only way to appoint a new Pope is if the current one steps down or passes away. They cant just kick someone out and appoint a new one. The person I asked this question to went into a lot more detail than this, but this is all I can remember. someone correct me if I got anything wrong.
 
ashnicole said:
From what I’ve been told, not 100% sure on this though, is that if something would happen where the Pope be comes incapable and he doesn’t realize it, that the College of Cardinals would shut him out of the public light, and make it impossible for him to make any altering decision, etc. The only way to appoint a new Pope is if the current one steps down or passes away. They cant just kick someone out and appoint a new one. The person I asked this question to went into a lot more detail than this, but this is all I can remember. someone correct me if I got anything wrong.
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I have never heard that, so if the person you asked has a reference it would be appreciated.

To the OP: Officially, there is not a lot that can be done:
a) There is no provision in Canon Law that I am aware of that would allow anyone to remove the Pope for any reason. The Pope remains Pope until he dies or voluntarily resigns. Period.
b) The College Of Cardinals only officially meets for two reasons: (1) the Pope is dead or has resigned and a new one needs to be elected or (2) The Pope calls them into session to advise him on some issue. They cannot officially meet on their own for any other purpose as far as I can see.
c) The wishes of the Pope need to be followed regardless of his mental state (Canon Law seems clear: “No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.” - Canon 333.3)

So what can you say to your CCD class? I have tackled the same question in mine and here is my response:
“As Vicar of Christ, the Pope exercises full and complete authority and cannot be removed for any reason. If he were to lose the ability to make rational decisions (e.g. if the Pope said all of the faithful must only root for the Dallas Cowboys) he would still be Pope and his wishes would still need to be followed by the faithful. In this case, those close to the Pope would try their best to either get him to resign or ensure he truly understands what he is asking. In any event, even if the Pope were senile, the Holy Spirit would still prevent him from teaching wrongly in matters of faith or morals.”
 
It seems to me that anyone who had the temerity to think they know what’s better for the Chuch than does God would not feel any constraint against removal of the pope via the Lucretia Borgia method.
 
Remember the Papacy is not a democracy, it’s a Monarchy. There’s no real way to depose a Pope.
 
Cactus said:
It seems to me that anyone who had the temerity to think they know what’s better for the Chuch than does God would not feel any constraint against removal of the pope via the Lucretia Borgia method.
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Sudden strokes and heart attacks are so common to older people in jobs of high stress and responsibility.
 
TheDoctor said:
I have never heard that, so if the person you asked has a reference it would be appreciated.

To the OP: Officially, there is not a lot that can be done:
a) There is no provision in Canon Law that I am aware of that would allow anyone to remove the Pope for any reason. The Pope remains Pope until he dies or voluntarily resigns. Period.
b) The College Of Cardinals only officially meets for two reasons: (1) the Pope is dead or has resigned and a new one needs to be elected or (2) The Pope calls them into session to advise him on some issue. They cannot officially meet on their own for any other purpose as far as I can see.
c) The wishes of the Pope need to be followed regardless of his mental state (Canon Law seems clear: “No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.” - Canon 333.3)

So what can you say to your CCD class? I have tackled the same question in mine and here is my response:
“As Vicar of Christ, the Pope exercises full and complete authority and cannot be removed for any reason. If he were to lose the ability to make rational decisions (e.g. if the Pope said all of the faithful must only root for the Dallas Cowboys) he would still be Pope and his wishes would still need to be followed by the faithful. In this case, those close to the Pope would try their best to either get him to resign or ensure he truly understands what he is asking. In any event, even if the Pope were senile, the Holy Spirit would still prevent him from teaching wrongly in matters of faith or morals.”
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Of course you wouldn’t listen to him if he asked you to break one of the commandments ? raggetyann
 
choy said:
i was teaching Catechism yesterday regarding Holy Orders and while tackling the subject of Bishops and the Pope being a Bishop, one of my students asked if the Pope can be removed from his office. i know a Pope can step down if he feels he is unable to fulfill his duties, due to health or other reasons. but what if a Pope becomes uncapable but he doesn’t realize it (becomes senile due to age perhaps?), can he be removed? and who makes this decision, is it still the College of Cardinals?
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I don’t know of any official procedure in the modern era to remove a Pope but it is theoretically possible. Pope John XII was deposed by a synod in 964 but I can’t imagine another Pope bringing as much disgrace and scandal upon the Church and the Office of the Pope as he did.
 
Pope Benedict IX was also deposed by a synod in 1046 and excommunicated in 1049.
 
Rolltide said:
Yes, but he was deposed AFTER he had resigned and tried to come back into office after a new pope had been named.
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He was reappointed in 1045 and remained Pope until his deposition in 1046. It should also be noted that a new pope hadn’t been legitimately named but the papacy sold to his godfather which is why Sylvester III is considered to be an anti-pope and why Benedict IX was found guilty of simony and excommunicated.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
He was reappointed in 1045 and remained Pope until his deposition in 1046. It should also be noted that a new pope hadn’t been legitimately named but the papacy sold to his godfather which is why Sylvester III is considered to be an anti-pope and why Benedict IX was found guilty of simony and excommunicated.
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Actually, from 1045 to 1046, Gregory VI, his godfather, WAS recognized as pope. Benedict IX tried to assert his claim, but was not recognized. The German king Henry III was forced to intervene in the scandal. He declared both Benedict IX and Sylvester III deposed at the Council of Sutri, and Gregory VI was encouraged to resign, which he did. A new pope, Clement II, was elected.

BUT… Benedict IX didn’t recognize the council or the judgment. Clement II only lived for a year, and when he died, Benedict IX seized the Lateran Palace. He had to be forcibly removed by the Germans in July 1048. To fill the power vacuum, Pope Damasus II was elected, and universally recognized. Benedict IX refused to appear before him on the charges of simony, and so Damasus II excommunicated him.

Sylvester III was always considered an anti-pope for attempting to overthrow Benedict IX when he was still the legitimately elected pope.
 
Rolltide said:
Actually, from 1045 to 1046, Gregory VI, his godfather, WAS recognized as pope.
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You are correct in that Gregory VI was his godfather (not Sylvester) and that he was recognized as pope but Benedict IX was effectively reigning as Pope. Anyway, none of this changes the fact that, historically, the Pope could be, and was at least once if you don’t count Benedict IX, deposed by a synod. So, the answers to the questions in OP are yes, it is possible. Method? In accordance with the historical actions of the Church; a synod. Is it likely to happen again? No.
 
raggetyann said:
Of course you wouldn’t listen to him if he asked you to break one of the commandments ? raggetyann
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Moot point, as he never would. To ask me to break one of those commandments (I presume you are talking about the 10 we got from God way back when) would be to teach error in faith and morals, something the Holy Spirit would ensure the Pope never does (it’s really really cool to have God watching your back, isn’t it?)
 
choy said:
so is deposing by synod or council still applicable today?
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I think the only honest answer for anyone would be “I don’t know for certain.” People can quote cannon law all they wish but it doesn’t answer the question. We can speculate that, if faced with another unrepentant, immoral, and scandalous Papacy, a synod or council would be called to consider deposition in accordance with Church tradition but there isn’t anything in cannon law which addresses this issue.
 
When Pope John Paul II was gravely ill, I believe this question was asked and it was determined that a council or synod could NOT remove the pope. In fact, there have been calls by several cardinals to come up with some kind of a formal procedure for dealing with a pope who is permanently unconscious, or has Alzheimer’s disease, and the like, since it is possible that some kind of scenario like this could arise in the future.
 
choy said:
i was teaching Catechism yesterday regarding Holy Orders and while tackling the subject of Bishops and the Pope being a Bishop, one of my students asked if the Pope can be removed from his office. i know a Pope can step down if he feels he is unable to fulfill his duties, due to health or other reasons. but what if a Pope becomes uncapable but he doesn’t realize it (becomes senile due to age perhaps?), can he be removed? and who makes this decision, is it still the College of Cardinals?
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I really don’t know the answer to this question. I know that if a bishop of a diocese is incapacitated in some way, the diocese is declared ‘impeded’ and an auxillary bishop can take his place. It might be that since the pope is Bishop of Rome and that Rome is his diocese, the same could be followed.

But you have to realize that a pope doesn’t have to do anything. He also exists as a symbol of Christian unity. The day-to-day operations of the Vatican can be handled by an appointed cardinal. It is known that John Paul II was incapacitated but that Josef Ratzinger oversaw the Vatican operations.

I don’t have an updated canon law for this, but I found one from 1963, Canon 332.2), “If it should so happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it be accepted by anyone.”
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
By whom? Is there a source document?
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I’m looking. I’m finding a lot of magazine articles and such from the time of JPII’s death stating that there is no procedure from removing a pope due to ill health and that he can only resign, but nothing definitive.
 
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