S
steve_b
Guest
What good is it to continually watch over i.e. oversee something, and have no authority to do anything with what you’re overseeing?
- Status
D
dcointin
Guest
So this would be an inference?
N
Nine_Two
Guest
Except that in Ignatius’s letters to the various churches he takes a position of superiority, in spite of a recognition that there is already a bishop. This is most clearly seen in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans.
I just happened to read that one last night.
D
dcointin
Guest
Could you explain what this would prove?Except that in Ignatius’s letters to the various churches he takes a position of superiority, in spite of a recognition that there is already a bishop. This is most clearly seen in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans.
I just happened to read that one last night.
V
Vico
Guest
From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (1998)
- Together with the magisterial role of the primacy, the mission of Peter’s Successor for the whole Church entails the right to perform acts of ecclesiastical governance necessary or suited to promoting and defending the unity of faith and communion; one of these, for example, is to give the mandate for the ordination of new Bishops, requiting that they make the profession of Catholic faith; to help everyone continue in the faith professed. Obviously, there are many other possible ways, more or less contingent, of carrying out this service of unity: to issue laws for the whole Church, to establish pastoral structures to serve various particular Churches, to give binding force to the decisions of Particular Councils, to approve supradiocesan religious institutes, etc. Since the power of the primacy is supreme, there is no other authority to which the Roman Pontiff must juridically answer for his exercise of the gift he has received: “prima sedes a nemine iudicatur”.42 This does not mean, however, that the Pope has absolute power. listening to what the Churches are saying is, in fact, an earmark of the ministry of unity, a consequence also of the unity of the Episcopal Body and of the sensus fidei of the entire People of God; and this bond seems to enjoy considerably greater power and certainty than the juridical authorities - an inadmissible hypothesis, moreover, because it is groundless - to which the Roman Pontiff would supposedly have to answer. The ultimate and absolute responsibility of the Pope is best guaranteed, on the one hand, by its relationship to Tradition and fraternal communion and, on the other, by trust in the assistance of the Holy Spirit who governs the Church.
I
Ignatios
Guest
" …which also presides in the place of the report of the Romans…and which presides over love" there is none in there that would even suggest any kind of authority over the other Sees, however have you read the whole letter to the Romans, here is some …
"Chapter IX(9).-Pray for the Church in Syria.
Remember in your prayers the Church in Syria, which now has God for its shepherd, instead of me. Jesus Christ alone will oversee it, and your love [will also regard it].
And below is from the “doctor” of the church history in the RCC, Eusebius:
Chapter 36. Ignatius and His Epistles.
- At that time Polycarp, a disciple of the apostles, was a man of eminence in Asia, having been entrusted with the episcopate of the church of Smyrna by those who had seen and heard the Lord.
- And at the same time** Papias, bishop of the parish of Hierapolis**, became well known, as did also Ignatius, who was chosen bishop of Antioch, second in succession to Peter, and whose fame is still celebrated by a great many.
- So when he came to Smyrna, where Polycarp was, he wrote an epistle to the church of Ephesus, in which he mentions Onesimus, its pastor; and another to the church of Magnesia, situated upon the Mæander, in which he makes mention again of a bishop Damas; and finally one to the church of Tralles, whose bishop, he states, was at that time Polybius.
- In addition to these he wrote also to the church of Rome, entreating them not to secure his release from martyrdom, and thus rob him of his earnest hope. In confirmation of what has been said it is proper to quote briefly from this epistle.
- These things he wrote from the above-mentioned city to the churches referred to. And when he had left Smyrna he wrote again from Troas to the Philadelphians and to the church of Smyrna; and particularly to** Polycarp, who presided over the latter church**.** And since he knew him well as an apostolic man, he commended to him, like a true and good shepherd, the flock at Antioch, and besought him to care diligently for it.**
S
steve_b
Guest
Polycarp is the bishop of Smyrna. Both Polycarp and Ignatius were desciples of St John the apostle. Keep in mind he is saying his farewells. He is encouraging his readers, to maintain the course and stay faithful.
N:
Ignatius is in chains on his way to be martyred in Rome when he writes his letters. I’m not seeing what you’re seeing.
newadvent.org/fathers/0110.htm (Ignatius to Polycarp)
newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm (to the Church of Smyrna)
newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm (to the Church of Rome)
R
Roy5
Guest
Maybe I shouldn’t response to this thread as I have different problems with papal supremacy.
** It appears to me that events in Europe during the early A. D. centuries led power to became centered in the Vatican.** The Roman Empire in the west fell apart and the Pope seems to have taken on many of the characteristic of the emperor. I was in Rome years ago - in my student days - and they were carrying the Pope around with crowds shouting Viva la Papa! (maybe I spelled that wrong). To me, it resembled the sort of homage the Romans gave to their emperor. I believe even the words echoed the shouts during the imperial days.
**
And I have read various books on the Papacy,** recently Absolute Monarchs by Norwich. Wow! What an assortment of pious saints and outrageous sinners. So many scandals. So many political machinations. I have trouble believing that God guides these Pontiffs in faith and morals when some of them appear to have had little faith and no morals!
** It appears to me that events in Europe during the early A. D. centuries led power to became centered in the Vatican.** The Roman Empire in the west fell apart and the Pope seems to have taken on many of the characteristic of the emperor. I was in Rome years ago - in my student days - and they were carrying the Pope around with crowds shouting Viva la Papa! (maybe I spelled that wrong). To me, it resembled the sort of homage the Romans gave to their emperor. I believe even the words echoed the shouts during the imperial days.
Code:
** I also have been troubled by the entire hierarchal setup,** the lack of democracy in any real sense within the church. Yes, it has improved a bit since Vatican II with Parish Councils and such, and perhaps I have been unduly influenced by American democracy, but I am troubled when I see a large line of mostly-older men dressed in dated ceremonial outfits filing in and out of special church events. It looks like a throwback to ancient times -Roman times. And not a woman in that line. That also echoes ancient times.And I have read various books on the Papacy,** recently Absolute Monarchs by Norwich. Wow! What an assortment of pious saints and outrageous sinners. So many scandals. So many political machinations. I have trouble believing that God guides these Pontiffs in faith and morals when some of them appear to have had little faith and no morals!
Code:
** As for the words of Jesus to Peter**, many interpret that to mean that Christ was building his Church on Peter's testimony, not on Peter the man. After all, only a few verses later Jesus condemned Peter: "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me." Curious episode.
**But "think and let think" - my credo.** Many are ready to believe what they are told. Fine. However, to me freedom to weigh, question, explore, and doubt are important. I don't think it makes me less of a Christian. Faith is the kmey to the Christian faith and not a list of doctrines that theologians developed over the centuries.
**God bless everybody.**
N
Nine_Two
Guest
It disproves the claim that Rome was the only church that ministered to other churches in the post-apostolic era.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
Of course, he’s not ministering at all in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans. Just like St. Clement wasn’t ministering in his epistles to Corinth.
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Don,
I think that we need to recognize a nuance in the term “jurisdiction.”
It seems that to some (mostly Low Petrine and Absolutist Petrine advocates) the term refers to a mode of control to be utilized at the mere discretion of the one who has “jurisdiction.”
To others (mostly High Petrine and some Low Petrine advocates) the term refers to a mode of service to the Church, to be utilized only according to the needs of the Church.
One can see the inherent conflict between the two interpretations. Would you agree with that assessment?
Blessings,
Marduk
That is a good question.
I think that we need to recognize a nuance in the term “jurisdiction.”
It seems that to some (mostly Low Petrine and Absolutist Petrine advocates) the term refers to a mode of control to be utilized at the mere discretion of the one who has “jurisdiction.”
To others (mostly High Petrine and some Low Petrine advocates) the term refers to a mode of service to the Church, to be utilized only according to the needs of the Church.
One can see the inherent conflict between the two interpretations. Would you agree with that assessment?
Blessings,
Marduk
S
steve_b
Guest
Feel free to comment anytime
R:
In your student days, what were you studying?
The Roman empire in its hayday, stretched from Hadrians wall in Scottland to Egypt, encompassing Northern Africa. The Roman empire covered East and West. Here’s a cool interactive map you can select various dates and locations to see the empire over time. roman-empire.net/maps/map-empire.html
R:
The Church is not a democracy that’s true. Many want to make it so, thinking everything has to be subject to a vote, but it’s not a democracy. God didn’t set it up that way. Btw, Jesus created the hierarchy.
The greatest woman that ever lived is the Blessed Virgin Mary…Mother of God and the mother of the Church. Who elevates her to her rightful place? the Catholic Church. And always has from the beginning. Then look at the saints of the Church. Lots of women there. catholic.org/saints/female.php
R:
Thata boy, pick an admitted non scholar agnopstic Protestant to get your information.
R:
The apostles all said earlier [Mt 14:33] what Peter said at Ceserea Philippi [Mt 16:16…].
Did Jesus stop what everybody was doing and say to the apostles, hey guys “your confession was a revelation from the Father” and so I’m going to change everybody’s name to Rock, and give you the keys to the kingdom,? Nope! [Mt 14:33] would be the place to do it if it was based on one’s confession. But it didn’t happen that way. Nothing was said to them by Jesus for their response. He did what He did for Peter alone. Besides, a person’s faith and the person are the same. It’s not either/or but both. Therefore, it’s Peter, faith and all.
Re: the Satan comment. Jesus told ALL of the apostles that Satan asked to sift them all like wheat. When was that going to start? Who’s Satan going to sift first? The one Jesus gives the keys to the kingdom to?..Yeah, it’s.Peter!!! Did it change the course God took with Peter? iow, Did Jesus retract the keys and what He promised Peter? Not one iota…
R:
Here’s a scriptural question for you.
What is the pillar and foundation of truth?
S
steve_b
Guest
No. Are your bishops overseers only, with no authority over what they oversee?
S
steve_b
Guest
You said Antioch had supremacy over the other Churches that Ignatius wrote to.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8990055&postcount=23
S
steve_b
Guest
Clement was settling sedition among bishops in Corinth at Corinth’s request. Why Rome? That’s a looooooong way from Corinth. Athens is a stones throw from Corinth. They are a Church mentioned in Acts. They have valid bishops. Why didn’t Corinth ask THEM to settle the issue in Corinth?Of course, he’s not ministering at all in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans. Just like St. Clement wasn’t ministering in his epistles to Corinth.
This isn’t a ministering issue, it’s a management issue.
R
Roy5
Guest
Steve b
A few brief responses to your points.
1. When I was in college, I majored in political science, minored in philosophy and history (double minor).
2. I know that the Church is not a democracy. I am, however, troubled by the notion that the Pope is presented as the Vicar of Christ on earth, Why were so many Popes so ‘bad’ if God had assigned them to be His respresentatives? Hm! I have difficulty with that. I also react negatively to the ornateness I see, to the medieval symbols that appear better suited to the monarchial age than to the time we live in, to the emphasis on fancy vestments, etc. I know this is me and others are doubtless impressed, including some of my kinfolk who share my mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage.
3. The elevation of Mary doesn’t make the absence of women within the church hierarchy okay. These are apples and oranges. The image that comes across to many is a church run by celibate older men who live in a world quite divorced from the real world of the rest of us. True, women didn’t vote in the US 100 years ago, but that was wrong. In the same sense, excluding women from positions of serious authority in the Church is understandable historically, when society was so heavily patriarchal. But times change, and the Church needs to wrestle intelligently with that. Yes, and I know about Mother Angelica and many of the female saints (practically all of them virgins, by the way). Many women have been alienated from Catholicism, and the discussion of birth control availability today only accentuates this. One can strongly oppose abortion and still respect the right of married couples to space their children. The system approved by the Church is unreliable - and can fill what should be normal and joyful sexual relations with acute anxiety.
**
4. Norwich seemed to me to have written a rather objective book.** He marvels at the continuation of the Papacy through the centuries, and that has been rather amazing in many ways. Still, what does he report as a historian that is basically false? Even Church historians recognize that some Popes were nefarious in their personal lives, etc.
**5. One of my good friends is an Egyptian Coptic **- of the independent Coptic Church to which the large majority of Egyptian Christians belong. As you perhaps know, they reject the Roman Papacy as their authority. They have their own Pope whom they trace back to St. Mark. Several other ‘churches of the east’ fall into that category, churches that go back to earliest Christianity. I respect their testimony and their traditions.
But, having said all that. I’m not interested in arguing the point. I gave in to the temptation to respond to the thread because of its title. Mea culpa.
I am part of that vast American majority who thank God for our freedom of religion. I cannot demean Protestantism when I recall - for example - that while Europe still was wallowing in decadent monarchy 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were ‘heretical’ Protestants in the eyes of the Church. I hope a majority agree with me that no one church is the ‘one true church’ but that Christians should ‘agree to disagree’ and dwell in peace and mutual respect God has the truth and I can wait until I enter eternity to find out what it is in detail. Meanwhile, we all are involved in an interesting guessing game, citing verses of scripture that seem to support the viewpoint of our particular tribe. Probably we’re all mistaken. In this universe of billions of stars, maybe even solar systems, it’s wise to practice humility and awe. Shamefully, religion too often claims to promote humility, love and peace while actually fostering pride, contempt and anger.
A few brief responses to your points.
1. When I was in college, I majored in political science, minored in philosophy and history (double minor).
2. I know that the Church is not a democracy. I am, however, troubled by the notion that the Pope is presented as the Vicar of Christ on earth, Why were so many Popes so ‘bad’ if God had assigned them to be His respresentatives? Hm! I have difficulty with that. I also react negatively to the ornateness I see, to the medieval symbols that appear better suited to the monarchial age than to the time we live in, to the emphasis on fancy vestments, etc. I know this is me and others are doubtless impressed, including some of my kinfolk who share my mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage.
3. The elevation of Mary doesn’t make the absence of women within the church hierarchy okay. These are apples and oranges. The image that comes across to many is a church run by celibate older men who live in a world quite divorced from the real world of the rest of us. True, women didn’t vote in the US 100 years ago, but that was wrong. In the same sense, excluding women from positions of serious authority in the Church is understandable historically, when society was so heavily patriarchal. But times change, and the Church needs to wrestle intelligently with that. Yes, and I know about Mother Angelica and many of the female saints (practically all of them virgins, by the way). Many women have been alienated from Catholicism, and the discussion of birth control availability today only accentuates this. One can strongly oppose abortion and still respect the right of married couples to space their children. The system approved by the Church is unreliable - and can fill what should be normal and joyful sexual relations with acute anxiety.
**
4. Norwich seemed to me to have written a rather objective book.** He marvels at the continuation of the Papacy through the centuries, and that has been rather amazing in many ways. Still, what does he report as a historian that is basically false? Even Church historians recognize that some Popes were nefarious in their personal lives, etc.
**5. One of my good friends is an Egyptian Coptic **- of the independent Coptic Church to which the large majority of Egyptian Christians belong. As you perhaps know, they reject the Roman Papacy as their authority. They have their own Pope whom they trace back to St. Mark. Several other ‘churches of the east’ fall into that category, churches that go back to earliest Christianity. I respect their testimony and their traditions.
But, having said all that. I’m not interested in arguing the point. I gave in to the temptation to respond to the thread because of its title. Mea culpa.
I am part of that vast American majority who thank God for our freedom of religion. I cannot demean Protestantism when I recall - for example - that while Europe still was wallowing in decadent monarchy 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were ‘heretical’ Protestants in the eyes of the Church. I hope a majority agree with me that no one church is the ‘one true church’ but that Christians should ‘agree to disagree’ and dwell in peace and mutual respect God has the truth and I can wait until I enter eternity to find out what it is in detail. Meanwhile, we all are involved in an interesting guessing game, citing verses of scripture that seem to support the viewpoint of our particular tribe. Probably we’re all mistaken. In this universe of billions of stars, maybe even solar systems, it’s wise to practice humility and awe. Shamefully, religion too often claims to promote humility, love and peace while actually fostering pride, contempt and anger.
**God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture, and country**. Let us make religion a bridge instead of a barrier. After all, we worship the one God.
C
Cavaradossi
Guest
Corinth is closer to Rome than it is to Antioch or Alexandria.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
I did not say that anywhere in that post.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
Ignatius sends similar advice to the Ephesians, also closer to Athens.
Perhaps the answer to why Athens wasn’t consulted, is because Athens wasn’t a major see.
I’m not even sure Athens was a major city at that time (Christian or otherwise). With the end of the Classical Age it went into a long decline and I am unaware of it having any influence until the Greek War of Independence.
In fact I’d be surprised if Corinth wasn’t larger at the time.
D
dcointin
Guest
The difference is that I haven’t yet seen it demonstrated that the Pope is the bishop of all churches. My bishops truly are bishops of their diocese, but is the whole world the diocese of the Pope? I can accept that the Pope understands himself to have a special care for all churches, but not that this is necessarily jurisdiction over them.
- Status