Papal Supremacy

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dcointin said:
Explain again how Jesus is actually saying in that passage that Peter is the greatest among them.
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In addition to what I posted previously,

Peter’s role as is the popes role
  • is not service, “alone”
  • is not either service or rule or command or have authority over, or controlling in council, etc. as if one or the other, but not all the other responsibilities and authority together.
iow, Peter and the popes are to serve, and rule, and lead, and command, and have authority over, and controlling in council etc etc.

As an aside, Individual bishops are responsible for their individual diocese. They have no authority in anyone elses diocese. Only the pope can replace a bad bishop in a diocese. It’s rarely done but he has that authority.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/controversial-australian-bishop-sacked-by-pope-benedict-xvi/

The Church is not a democracy as some imagine. The pope really does have supreme authority.
 
steve_b said:
In addition to what I posted previously,

Peter’s role as is the popes role
  • is not service, “alone”
  • is not either service or rule or command or have authority over, or controlling in council, etc. as if one or the other, but not all the other responsibilities and authority together.
iow, Peter and the popes are to serve, and rule, and lead, and command, and have authority over, and controlling in council etc etc.

As an aside, Individual bishops are responsible for their individual diocese. They have no authority in anyone elses diocese. Only the pope can replace a bad bishop in a diocese. It’s rarely done but he has that authority.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/controversial-australian-bishop-sacked-by-pope-benedict-xvi/

The Church is not a democracy as some imagine. The pope really does have supreme authority.
Click to expand...
We find that both our understanding and yours of the Papacy is, as it is clearly indicated by the RCC, I think the first step towards unity would start by each professing what they believe and where they stand instead ( as Pope Benedict announced the first year(?) he became a Pope concerning the other churches) of using gymnastics in an effort to get around the issues, for, by trying to make it sound as if it is all a misunderstanding is a plain trick out of Hell, lies are of the devil for satan is the father of lies.
 
Ignatios said:
We find that both our understanding and yours of the Papacy is, as it is clearly indicated by the RCC, I think the first step towards unity would start by each professing what they believe and where they stand instead ( as Pope Benedict announced the first year(?) he became a Pope concerning the other churches) of using gymnastics in an effort to get around the issues, for, by trying to make it sound as if it is all a misunderstanding is a plain trick out of Hell, lies are of the devil for satan is the father of lies.
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When then Joseph Ratzinger, proposed ( I paraphrase) the EO should only be held to the understanding of the papacy of the 1st millenium, well, I don’t see a rush to agree by the EO even to that idea.

Now as pope, he won’t undo what has been Divinely instituted because he can’t. So I guess we wait.
 
steve_b said:
When then Joseph Ratzinger, proposed ( I paraphrase) the EO should only be held to the understanding of the papacy of the 1st millenium, well, I don’t see a rush to agree by the EO even to that idea.

Now as pope, he won’t undo what has been Divinely instituted because he can’t. So I guess we wait.
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Because Actions speak louder than words. If he said that, and demonstrated it, then we would be more accepting of Rome.
 
Nine_Two said:
Because Actions speak louder than words. If he said that, and demonstrated it, then we would be more accepting of Rome.
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I can’t put my finger on any specific document that gives the absolute up-to-date status on this process. I do know that the CC has to negotiate individually with each EO Church because you’re all seperate and no one speaks for anyone other than themselves. So any success at unity, is going to be one EO Church at a time. Without the up to date score card on the process we can only go on what ifs which I prefer not to get into…

however, Re: Joseph Ratzinger
  • suggesting parameters for the EO to accept the papacy as it was in 1st millenium, what is happening with that suggestion on the EO side? Is it Y or N?
 
steve_b said:
In addition to what I posted previously,

Peter’s role as is the popes role
  • is not service, “alone”
  • is not either service or rule or command or have authority over, or controlling in council, etc. as if one or the other, but not all the other responsibilities and authority together.
iow, Peter and the popes are to serve, and rule, and lead, and command, and have authority over, and controlling in council etc etc.

As an aside, Individual bishops are responsible for their individual diocese. They have no authority in anyone elses diocese. Only the pope can replace a bad bishop in a diocese. It’s rarely done but he has that authority.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/controversial-australian-bishop-sacked-by-pope-benedict-xvi/

The Church is not a democracy as some imagine. The pope really does have supreme authority.
Click to expand...
Do you know of any patristic commentaries on these passages? I checked for one by Chrysostom but didn’t find any on Luke. Thanks!
 
steve_b said:
I can’t put my finger on any specific document that gives the absolute up-to-date status on this process. I do know that the CC has to negotiate individually with each EO Church because you’re all seperate and no one speaks for anyone other than themselves. So any success at unity, is going to be one EO Church at a time.
Click to expand...
A formal ecumenical dialogue has been ongoing since 1979 via the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, established by the Holy See and 14 of the largest autocephalous Orthodox Churches.

The last plenary session was in 2010, and concluded with a written examination of the Papacy in the first millenium.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
A formal ecumenical dialogue has been ongoing since 1979 via the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, established by the Holy See and 14 of the largest autocephalous Orthodox Churches.

The last plenary session was in 2010, and concluded with a written examination of the Papacy in the first millenium.
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Are you referring to Ravenna? I’ve read a lot of commentary on the matter from Catholics and EO.

Catholic Absolutist Petrine advocates repudiate it because they don’t want to relinquish their idea of papal monarchy and their refusal to see the Church as a co-rulership among bishops.

EO Low Petrine advocates repudiate it because they don’t want to relinquish their idea of mere primacy of honor and their refusal to acknoweldge a head bishop for the Church universal.

Both camps love to point out that the Commission findings are not official. While this is true, I find the common ground reflected in Ravenna to be the best hope so far for rapprochement between the Churches on the issue of the Primacy.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Are you referring to Ravenna? I’ve read a lot of commentary on the matter from Catholics and EO.

Catholic Absolutist Petrine advocates repudiate it because they don’t want to relinquish their idea of papal monarchy and their refusal to see the Church as a co-rulership among bishops.

EO Low Petrine advocates repudiate it because they don’t want to relinquish their idea of mere primacy of honor and their refusal to acknoweldge a head bishop for the Church universal.

Both camps love to point out that the Commission findings are not official. While this is true, I find the common ground reflected in Ravenna to be the best hope so far for rapprochement between the Churches on the issue of the Primacy.

Blessings,
Marduk
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I refer specifically to the work of the Joint Commission following Ravenna. The point is the work continues, and it does so as a joint effort sanctioned by all the participating churches. Statements of the Joint Commission are made with the consent of all the participating Churches. Outside observers are entitled to opinions about the commission, its work and its level of authority, but the work continues as an officially sanctioned effort.

The latest session concluded with an agreed assessment of the history of the Papacy in the first millenium. This was intended to be foundational, with a discussion of possible models for governance of a unified church still to be explored at future sessions. To my knowledge, the formal joint statement has yet to be publicly released.

Reuters article on the most recent session in Vienna: Catholics and Orthodox Report Promising Progress in Latest Round of Unity Talks (24 Sept 2010)
 
steve_b said:
I can’t put my finger on any specific document that gives the absolute up-to-date status on this process. I do know that the CC has to negotiate individually with each EO Church because you’re all seperate and no one speaks for anyone other than themselves. So any success at unity, is going to be one EO Church at a time. Without the up to date score card on the process we can only go on what ifs which I prefer not to get into…

however, Re: Joseph Ratzinger
  • suggesting parameters for the EO to accept the papacy as it was in 1st millenium, what is happening with that suggestion on the EO side? Is it Y or N?
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If the Pope truly wants union he has to negotiate with the Communion as a whole in order to be readmitted to Communion.

As for that question, yes, that would be a requirement of unity. Similarly the Western Church would have to accept such a view of the papacy.
 
I see the categories of “Low Petrine”, “High Petrine”, and “Absolutist Petrine” have surfaced yet again. But I think it was established, the last time around, that these 3 categories are of very recent origin and are even unknown except for Catholic Answers and a couple other websites.
 
Nine_Two said:
If the Pope truly wants union he has to negotiate with the Communion as a whole in order to be readmitted to Communion.

As for that question, yes, that would be a requirement of unity. Similarly the Western Church would have to accept such a view of the papacy.
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Pope Benedict has worked pretty hard at improving relations with the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. but I wouldn’t interpret anything he has said as expressing a desire to swim the Bosphorus (or the Rhine, or the Thames).
 
Peter_J said:
Pope Benedict has worked pretty hard at improving relations with the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. but I wouldn’t interpret anything he has said as expressing a desire to swim the Bosphorus (or the Rhine, or the Thames).
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I agree, and I respect him for that.

But similarly, we can’t be expected to cross any rivers for Catholics. 😉
 
Peter_J said:
Pope Benedict has worked pretty hard at improving relations with the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. but I wouldn’t interpret anything he has said as expressing a desire to swim the Bosphorus (or the Rhine, or the Thames).
Click to expand...
Nine_Two said:
I agree, and I respect him for that.

But similarly, we can’t be expected to cross any rivers for Catholics. 😉
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so much for all being “as one” (thought someone we all know once prayed for that …)
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Originally Posted by Peter J
Pope Benedict has worked pretty hard at improving relations with the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. but I wouldn’t interpret anything he has said as expressing a desire to swim the Bosphorus (or the Rhine, or the Thames).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine_Two
I agree, and I respect him for that.

But similarly, we can’t be expected to cross any rivers for Catholics.

so much for all being “as one” (thought someone we all know once prayed for that …)
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Well look on the bright side: there are a great many Anglo-Catholics who are interested in joining either Catholicism or Orthodoxy, and just need to make up their minds on which one.
 
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