Papal vestments: Marini's Good work

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Pious_Mat

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Since his appointment, Marini seems to be restoring liturgical tradition to the Vatican. A great example is the way the Pope was dressed today. The Mitre, Cope, and throne are reminiscent of Papal attire at the beginning of the twentieth century, and although elegant, is essentially simple. This attire is certainly an improvement from what the Pope was sometimes dressed in during the first year or so of his pontificate (some of you may remember the blue and yellow chasuble and mitre in Austria…), and certainly is a breath of fresh air for all of us with an abiding interest in vestments as a way to continue tradition.

Photos can be viewed via our old friends, the New Liturgical Movement:

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/
 
:clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :tiphat: FANTASTIC! Glorious vestments! It just gets better and better every day with Pope Benedict! 👍
 
I love Pope Benedict! As Dauphin said, it just keeps getting better and better. I pray that our Holy Father has a long papacy! He’ll repair the Church!
 
Great! I love to see the Pope in traditional vestments.
Good! The Pope made a great decision about Msgr. G. Marini, the new papal MC.

Pax
Laudater Jesus Christus
Instaurare omnia in Christo
 
snickers Who knows? Tomorrow we might get a fiddleback, falda, fanon, and a maniple. 😉
 
snickers Who knows? Tomorrow we might get a fiddleback, falda, fanon, and a maniple. 😉
And the day after that we might get another blue and yellow vestment special. I watched the Public Consistory today and we impressed like others. However, why does Tradition seem to be at the option of the Pope and/or his Master of Ceremonies in the modern Roman Catholic Church? This is troubling and hardly breathes an air of confidence in the Papacy as the guardian of Holy Tradition from non-Roman Catholics.

God bless,

Adam
 
And the day after that we might get another blue and yellow vestment special. I doubt it. I’ll tell you what, when I saw the new Marini in a lace rochet, I knew Papal Liturgies were going to get a lot better for the next couple of years. I watched the Public Consistory today and we impressed like others. However, why does Tradition seem to be at the option of the Pope and/or his Master of Ceremonies in the modern Roman Catholic Church? This is troubling and hardly breathes an air of confidence in the Papacy as the guardian of Holy Tradition from non-Roman Catholics.

God bless,

Adam
As for the rest, I’ll leave it to the other Romans…
 
snickers Who knows? Tomorrow we might get a fiddleback, falda, fanon, and a maniple. 😉
I sure hope not. Those fiddlebacks looked akin to bulletproof vests. I much prefer the far more common vestments we see today that are based on far more ancient designs.
 
I sure hope not. Those fiddlebacks looked akin to bulletproof vests. I much prefer the far more common vestments we see today that are based on far more ancient designs.
I hate the fact that Gothics, as nice as they may be, cover up the dalmatic, stole, maniple and all the other vestments. That’s just my opinion though…
 
And the day after that we might get another blue and yellow vestment special. I watched the Public Consistory today and we impressed like others. However, why does Tradition seem to be at the option of the Pope and/or his Master of Ceremonies in the modern Roman Catholic Church? This is troubling and hardly breathes an air of confidence in the Papacy as the guardian of Holy Tradition from non-Roman Catholics.

God bless,

Adam
Just what do you mean by “Tradition?” First I sure hope you are not referring to Sacred Tradition…

You are aware (for example) that the fiddleback chasuble is actually a newer design than the “gothic” chasables we see today? So just what is so "Traditional"abot those vestments?
 
I hate the fact that Gothics, as nice as they may be, cover up the dalmatic, stole, maniple and all the other vestments. That’s just my opinion though…
The dalmatic is no longer worn under the chasuble by bishops – and not even always by the bishop of Rome. Stoles are regularly visable peaking beneath gothic chasubles. The use of maniples has been discontinued – at least during the normative rite of the Mass.

No matter how you slice it, the fiddleback is a fairly ugly vestment. It’s only saving grace that they could possibly be cooler.
 
The dalmatic is no longer worn under the chasuble by bishops – and not even always by the bishop of Rome.
Unfortunate. They were never abolished, however.

Stoles are regularly visable peaking beneath gothic chasubles.
Wow, two inches of visibility.

The use of maniples has been discontinued – at least during the normative rite of the Mass.

No matter how you slice it, the fiddleback is a fairly ugly vestment. It’s only saving grace that they could possibly be cooler.

That’s opinion. In my opinion, fiddlebacks tend to be much more ornate and better looking. It seems that the gothic’s only saving grace is the fact that it’s based off an earlier design.
 
Just what do you mean by “Tradition?” First I sure hope you are not referring to Sacred Tradition…

You are aware (for example) that the fiddleback chasuble is actually a newer design than the “gothic” chasables we see today? So just what is so "Traditional"abot those vestments?
I would consider it traditional as it reflects the traditional Western reflection of what a liturgical vestment ought to be. As an Orthodox Christian, I find it highly distasteful that any Church claiming to honor Holy Tradition (which comprises both the Faith and its traditional expression) would turn to criticizing its once approved and loved vestments. Big turnoff. 😦

God bless,

Adam
 
As an Orthodox Christian, I find it highly distasteful that any Church claiming to honor Holy Tradition (which comprises both the Faith and its traditional expression) would turn to criticizing its once approved and loved vestments. Big turnoff.
As a catholic christian, i find it highly disturbing that any church claiming to honor Holy Tradition would allow contraceptives in marriage, a grave sin condemened by all christians until the early 20th century. gigantic turnoff 😦 😦 😦
 
I would consider it traditional as it reflects the traditional Western reflection of what a liturgical vestment ought to be. As an Orthodox Christian, I find it highly distasteful that any Church claiming to honor Holy Tradition (which comprises both the Faith and its traditional expression) would turn to criticizing its once approved and loved vestments. Big turnoff. 😦

God bless,

Adam
To be fair though, there is far more to Tradition than the shape of the vestments…
 
As a catholic christian, i find it highly disturbing that any church claiming to honor Holy Tradition would allow contraceptives in marriage, a grave sin condemened by all christians until the early 20th century. gigantic turnoff 😦 😦 😦
I find it amusing that when there is no refutation on the Roman Catholic side, that there is always the ole faithful birth control comment. I also find this troubling as it shows an over-emphasis on one aspect of the Christian life; an emphasis that would be better suited for personal discussions not forums. Maybe this is a modern Roman Catholic problem? I don’t remember Roman Catholics of the last generation having such a fixation on sex. Hmmm. Interesting.

But, in any case, you ought to know that the ancient Church didn’t advocate anything like NFP, even though they knew the woman was sometimes infertile. They supported total continence, as does the Orthodox Church. When people cannot live up to this total continence, we allow couples to use non-abortive forms of contraception. Like the ancient Church, we don’t replace total continence as the norm with rhythm/NFP. And we cannot make a distinction between NFP and non-abortive ABC, because God intends every conjugal act of the female during her childbearing years to be open to conception. This is reflected in nature in that the man is always fertile and the woman is most inclined to have relations when she is fertile, thus showing that God sees any deliberate attempt to avoid a conjugal act being procreative as not the norm of Christian life and as contraception. Ergo, NFP (which perverts nature by deliberately having the woman avoid relations when God designed her to want to have them) and non-abortive ABC (which perverts nature by having the woman deliberately reject her God-designed time of fertility) stand or fall together as different attempts to pervert nature in order to avoid the conjugal act being procreative.

God bless,

Adam
 
I would consider it traditional as it reflects the traditional Western reflection of what a liturgical vestment ought to be. As an Orthodox Christian, I find it highly distasteful that any Church claiming to honor Holy Tradition (which comprises both the Faith and its traditional expression) would turn to criticizing its once approved and loved vestments. Big turnoff. 😦

God bless,

Adam
Again what is “Holy Tradition?” Are you suggesting that “Holy Tradition” is Sacred Tradition? In other words vestments like fiddleback chasubles are part of the Church’s dogmatic deposit of faith? If not, then what is “Holy Tradition?”

Have you ever considered the fact that styles of chasubles which predate the fiddleback were commonly worn during the celebration of the Tridentine Mass long ago – styles which look exactly or almost exactly like the chasubles most commonly worn today?

What’s to be said about the process of reaching back into our history and using even more ancient vestment designs – designs that long predate the “TLM designs?” How does that relate to what you describe as “Holy Tradition?”
 
Again what is “Holy Tradition?” Are you suggesting that “Holy Tradition” is Sacred Tradition? In other words vestments like fiddleback chasubles are part of the Church’s dogmatic deposit of faith? If not, then what is “Holy Tradition?”
Holy Tradition is the Faith and its lived experience. In Orthodoxy, we don’t make a strict separation between belief and praxis. Your Church didn’t until after Vatican II.
What’s to be said about the process of reaching back into our history and using even more ancient vestment designs – designs that long predate the “TLM designs?” How does that relate to what you describe as “Holy Tradition?”
I haven’t opposed anybody’s preference for different traditional vestments. I just don’t support the derision that some people on this forum show toward fiddleback chasubles. If you don’t respect the small parts of Tradition, who is to say you will respect the large parts? Your Church’s neglect of many “minor” points of liturgy and discipline bred cafeteria Catholicism, which we both dislike.

God bless,

Adam
 
There are several good things about the fiddlebacks, and a few drawbacks, too.

The fiddleback is essentially “modern” (1800’s - 1970’s, really). They are typically quite ornate, even rococo. The cloth of gold and cloth of silver become quite fragile with repeated flexation; to prevent this flexing they are often made quite stiff. They are expensive to clean, hard to repair, frightfully expensive, and quite heavy. The cutouts for the arms are likewise a practical way to reduce flexation. Further, these vestments tend to be extremely warm due to many layers of interfacing plus the heavy brocades and trims and a heavy lining. The weaves tend to be extremely tight.

One priest I knew could not don a particular white & silver chasuble he favored without the assistance of others. It generally took two of us altar boys to put him into it… it weighed well over 20 pounds, and did not bend from any point below 6" down from the shoulders. It could, quite literally, be stood up on its own.

Scapular forms of the chasuble date back to the 1400’s.

The “Gothic” Chasuble and it’s easily mistakable predecessor, the Conical Chasuble, can be seen back to the 800’s in various illustrations. Some are as ornate as the fiddlebacks, but not many.

In general, tho, many modern gothic chasubles are of fairly light, flexible, durable, and often pretty materials. They are far more suitable to heated churches in the winter, and to summer use. They tend to be both less expensive to make and to maintain. They are in fact more traditional, and never entirely left the use even in the early 20th century…

Modern materials and construction can make either practical for either form of the mass. Both are approved forms of the vestment.

Now, the maniple isn’t used in the OF. But a maniple can be worn with the gothic chasuble, just as easily as with the fiddleback.
 
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