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HCC
Guest
Someone should point out that the country will be gaining far more in tax revenue from the Papal visit than they paid out.
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Jingerly44
Guest
The reasons you site for him not visiting are precisely the reasons he should visit. Besides, the official Catholic statistics for Mass attendance in England and Wales last year showed that over one million people attend Mass on any given Sunday - hardly “microscopic” ? Do you think it’s possible you’re succumbing to secular indoctrination ‘Face it Britain is lost…’ ?
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nhylan
Guest
If the Pope really views the Archbishop of Canterbury as just another layperson why had a previous pope given the ABC his own Episcopal Ring and the current one given him a bishops pectoral cross?
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
I cannot answer for the Holy Father chosing to make these gestures.
One has to remember that (a) the Catholic Church has never abrogated the Papal Bull Apostolicæ Curæ, which declares Anglican orders to be null and void and (b) any Anglican who is received into the Catholic Church who was a minister in an Anglican ecclesial community who wants to be a Catholic priest has to be ordained (a sacrament the Church teaches can only ever be administered once).
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nhylan
Guest
Thats true however, in the Orthodox (the other guys who view themselves as the TRUE CHURCH), due to the rules of economy, an Anglican Priest can does not require reordination just like a Catholic Priest doesn’t. I’m well aware we will talk ourselves in circles till we are blue on this, you aren’t the one who hasn’t re-examined Anglican Orders a hundered years after the initial bull was written and to be a good Catholic you have to believe they are otherwise but please don’t throw it in our faces by calling us an “Ecclesial Community” or the priests “ministers.” Its called being polite, its highly sought after, and used even by the people who wrote your bulls.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
I would like to make clear that I am not opposed to ecumenism. The Christian church is fractured and we should all pray for unity.
Thank you for advising me what the Eastern Orthodox churches do. I was truly ignorant of that fact.
I, of course, haven’t reviewed Anglican orders. However, I am not aware that the Catholic Church has officially taken a different stance. It is my understanding that Anglicans do not even consider Orders to be a sacrament. In calling you an ecclesial community I am, again, only using the Church’s terminology. Catholic priests are referred to as ministers. I do not see why you consider that word an insult. I think the problem there can be layed at your door. Some Anglicans would be insulted to be called ministers whereas others would find the title priest abhorrent. I cannot be held responsible for those differences you have amongst yourselves. I could not know which ‘camp’ you fall into.
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nhylan
Guest
I have never met a single Anglican priest who would rather or insisted on being called Minister. I would say that most Anglicans do view Ordination as a sacrament or at the very least a sacramental rite. The word is considered an insult because it is typically used (along with other words like it) to insinuate the invalidity of Anglican Orders. If you didn’t mean it in that regard I apologize. As for using church terminology in describing us as an “ecclesial community” I guarantee you that the pope, when he celebrates mass with the ABC will not refer to the Anglican Communion as a ecclesial community, that’s rude. Consider who you are talking to.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
I believe that the evangelical branch of the church of england does not like the term ‘priest’.
I was under the belief that the anglican communion considered there were two sacraments: baptism and eucharist.
The Pope may not use the term ecclesial community. However, I do not think it is likely that he will acknowledge the church of england or the anglican communion as churches. There is a document more contemporary than Apostolicæ Curæ that reminds Catholics that the term “sister churches” is to be restricted to the autocephalous Eastern Orthodox churches (I’m afraid I can’t recall it’s name).
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SilenJack
Guest
I suppose…shows what happens when you spent too much time mired on The Guardian’s website…not to mention anything written by Johann Hari… (who seems to set new lows when it come to smug secularist self-righteousness…)
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Jingerly44
Guest
There appears to be a little confusion in some of the above posts. Let’s be clear, when the Church talks of ecumenism it does so first and foremost from a understanding of the herself - ‘the’ Church:
Pontificium Consilium Ad Christianorum Unitatem Fovendam - Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism.
“Catholics hold the firm conviction that the one Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church “which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.22 They confess that the entirety of revealed truth, of sacraments, and of ministry that Christ gave for the building up of his Church and the carrying out of its mission is found within the Catholic communion of the Church.23 Therefore, when Catholics use the words “Churches”, “other Churches”, “other Churches and ecclesial Communities” etc., to refer to those who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, this firm conviction and confession of faith must always be kept in mind.”
Dominus Iesus explains this:
54.With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.52
Dominus Iuse VI. 20. Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.
The Church teaches clearly in the Catechism and in various documents that there is ‘no salvation outside the Church’, but she also recognises God’s grace, ‘compelling towards Catholic unity’, and the possibility that, through invisible ignorance, those outside the Church can be saved via those elements of truth derived from the Catholic Church. But it also teaches that those who recognise the Catholic Church as the true Church and do not enter it due to stubbornness or pride cannot be saved.
In Charity
Pontificium Consilium Ad Christianorum Unitatem Fovendam - Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism.
“Catholics hold the firm conviction that the one Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church “which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.22 They confess that the entirety of revealed truth, of sacraments, and of ministry that Christ gave for the building up of his Church and the carrying out of its mission is found within the Catholic communion of the Church.23 Therefore, when Catholics use the words “Churches”, “other Churches”, “other Churches and ecclesial Communities” etc., to refer to those who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, this firm conviction and confession of faith must always be kept in mind.”
Dominus Iesus explains this:
54.With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.52
Dominus Iuse VI. 20. Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.
The Church teaches clearly in the Catechism and in various documents that there is ‘no salvation outside the Church’, but she also recognises God’s grace, ‘compelling towards Catholic unity’, and the possibility that, through invisible ignorance, those outside the Church can be saved via those elements of truth derived from the Catholic Church. But it also teaches that those who recognise the Catholic Church as the true Church and do not enter it due to stubbornness or pride cannot be saved.
In Charity
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