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acuddymar
Guest
Is the “paradise” in the bible the same location as heaven? Is paradise the location of the saved who are still in purgatory? Are these terms interchangible?
Acuddymar
Acuddymar
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JebusPrice
Guest
They are two different places but they’re on the same street so I wouldn’t bother.
God Bless.
God Bless.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
PARADISE. A synonym for heaven. Jesus spoke of it in his promise to the good thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43). In only two other places in Scripture is it used in place of heaven. There is a reference to “the tree of life set in God’s paradise” (Revelation 2:7). Paul wrote about a man in Christ “caught up into paradise” (II Corinthians 12:4). (Etym. Greek paradeisos, park, the Garden of Eden, paradise, from Persian, pairidaeza, an enclosure, a pattern, model.)
Modern Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S. J.
Modern Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S. J.
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Shin
Guest
Purgatory is a separate place, and commonly spoken of rather as a part of Hell, especially due to the sense of speaking being anyplace not Heaven is a general part of it, in the afterlife.
Purgatory is not spoken of as part of Heaven. Though one is saved if one is in purgatory, one does not have the beatific vision of God yet and must still undergo punishment for justice’s sake.
Paradise can sometimes refer to Heaven, sometimes it can refer to the Paradise of Abraham or Limbo of the Fathers, a place where those who died before Christ waited for Heaven to be open. This too is considered a part of Hell in the general sense, but still a separate place or at least section in reality, and not a place of punishment except in the sense of waiting for Heaven to be opened.
Commonly it is said there are four separate chambers in the earth. Hell proper, Purgatory, the Limbo of the Fathers, now empty of souls who were awaiting Christ, and which was visited by Christ after His death to announce the good news, and the Limbo of the Infants. That would be the locations and places.
That said those experiencing Purgatory sometimes seem to extraordinarily be in other places, i.e. allowed to do part of their penance on earth, appear to people to request for help, etc.
Paradise can also mean the Garden of Eden… And it has been said Enoch and Elijah are waiting in a paradise, for their mission to come at the end of time to preach to the people.
“The common teaching of the scholastic theologians is the within the earth there are four inner chambers: one for the damned, another for those being purged of sin, a third for those infants who have died without receiving Baptism, and a fourth which is now empty but once held those just men who died before the passion of Christ.”
St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Doctor of the Church
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
John Hardon is usually pretty good; but he assumes too much in his definition.
“Paradisio” is persian in origin – and it means the Garden of a rich man.
The first Paradise belonged to God, and it was named “Eden”.
Historically, using old testament texts and others, a Paridise is also the burying place of a rich man. It is important to notice that Jesus was not rich when he died; and he said these words “Today you will be with me in paradise” just before the Sabbath (Saturday or a special day of observance); eg: he said it just before the day on which no one was to bury people. For that reason, it is important to notice that they laid Jesus in a tomb in a Garden that was recently hewn out for a rich man; This rich man was having mercy on Jesus in not leaving his body out for the birds to peck at.
They simply did not have time to bury Jesus anywhere else; Just so, the thief also had to be laid someplace close at hand for the same reason – if he was to be buried by Jews (or even Jewish-christians at that moment). So, Jesus’ words to the thief are encouragement – for only a rich man had the honor of such a burial; and they are something more, for they allow the thief a continuing hope so that he may not fall into the sin of dispair after Jesus dies – and he hangs there alone without Jesus’ presence — to finish paying for his sins by his own death. But they still allow us to recognize that to the very moment of death, the thief could have failed.
St. Peter tells us that Jesus descended to the dead in order to speak to them whom had disobeyed as far back as the time of Noah. And at Jesus’ death the tombs of many saints of old were opened – but no one tells us that the “good theif” was among those appearing in Jerusalem. We have the words of hope that Jesus gives to him, and the certainty that they would have encouraged him to hope – even if just a hope for a honorable death; none the less, that is what he needed to obey God. Amen.
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acuddymar
Guest
Shin,
If we do not enjoy the beatific vision until we enter heaven, who do we encounter at the particulat judgment when we find out whether we go to heaven, purgatory, or hell?
Acuddymar
If we do not enjoy the beatific vision until we enter heaven, who do we encounter at the particulat judgment when we find out whether we go to heaven, purgatory, or hell?
Acuddymar
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Shin
Guest
I’m not sure I understand you. Could you reword the question? It sounds like a mistake.
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acuddymar
Guest
Shin, I don’t know how to re-word it to be more clear. Who do we encounter at the particular judgment when our eternal fate is decided?
Acuddymar
Acuddymar
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Shin
Guest
God of course. Encountering God in the particular judgement as He judges you and determines your eternal destination is not the beatific vision.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
If he judges “you” benevolently and worthy, why wouldn’t it be?
“beatific” means happy, blessed, or Saint – therefore, beatific vision is the vision of a saint.
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acuddymar
Guest
I always thought encountering God face to face whether for the particular judgment or the start of one’s heaven was the beatific vision or is the encounter at the particular judgment faceless with the judgment made known to you through you conscience?
Acuddymar
Acuddymar
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Now, that’s quite the sentenceeing.
Faceless: what penthouse magazine often does to women – but not heaven.
The saints see Jesus “face to face”, as he is; others do not.
I don’t really know how…
Eye has not seen, Ear has not heard, what God has ready for those who love him.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
Not that I never heard. Is that your church teaching and is there scripture to go with that? When you say “particular judgment”, do you mean 1Cor: 3 where those in Christ have their works judged for rewards?
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Shin
Guest
The beatific vision is not simply seeing God with one’s eyes. It is a permanent spiritual union, seeing God clearly, interiorly, without anything in the way from any sin, without any attachments otherwise, or punishment due in purgatory for the sake of divine justice
One loves God, and one loves God alone, and one sees all things through God, as they were meant, for His sake. Once you have the beatific vision you can never lose it.
Adam and Eve did not have the beatific vision. Though they walked with God in Eden. They, like the angels, were created separated from spiritual union with God, to be put to the test first. No one is created with the beatific vision of God, all are put to the test and judged by God as to whether they will obtain it or not.
Men are judged twice… first in the particular judgement, after they die, and then at the Last Judgement, which is the end of the world, which is a judgement of all of mankind at once, as a whole, revealing the good and evil done before all, wherein the dead are resurrected and given bodies either to add to their punishment or to their glory.
In the Last Judgement all the sins each person committed will be revealed before the entire world, to the just this will glorify God’s mercy and not pain them, to the sinful, this will be all the more to their condemnation. It will be a judgement of all humanity, revealing the glory and Justice of God in how all were treated by God in this life and condemned or glorified in the next.
All places that are not Heaven can be spoken of in general at times as Hell, Gehenna, etc.
One loves God, and one loves God alone, and one sees all things through God, as they were meant, for His sake. Once you have the beatific vision you can never lose it.
Adam and Eve did not have the beatific vision. Though they walked with God in Eden. They, like the angels, were created separated from spiritual union with God, to be put to the test first. No one is created with the beatific vision of God, all are put to the test and judged by God as to whether they will obtain it or not.
See the commentary here. Yes those scriptures apply.
Men are judged twice… first in the particular judgement, after they die, and then at the Last Judgement, which is the end of the world, which is a judgement of all of mankind at once, as a whole, revealing the good and evil done before all, wherein the dead are resurrected and given bodies either to add to their punishment or to their glory.
In the Last Judgement all the sins each person committed will be revealed before the entire world, to the just this will glorify God’s mercy and not pain them, to the sinful, this will be all the more to their condemnation. It will be a judgement of all humanity, revealing the glory and Justice of God in how all were treated by God in this life and condemned or glorified in the next.
All places that are not Heaven can be spoken of in general at times as Hell, Gehenna, etc.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
What academic credentials do you hold that would persuade anyone to dismiss the definition given by John Harden, S.J. – a noted author of many books, theologian, and highly educated Jesuit priest – and accept yours? His dictionary was vetted by 31 theologians, etymologists, and editors before printing (they are mentioned in the introduction). Defend yourself. Tell us what makes you the expert in preference to Father Hardon?
Did you check with Webster?
WEBSTER’S NEW COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY:.
PARADISE: 1. heaven, as the final abode of the righteous
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Correction:If he judges “you” benevolently and worthy, why wouldn’t it be?
“beatific” means happy, blessed, or Saint – therefore, beatific vision is the vision of a saint.
**BEATIFIC VISION. ** The intuitive knowledge of God which produces beatitude.
As defined by the Church, the souls of the just "see the divine essence by an intuitive vision and face to face, so that the divine essence is known immediately, showing itself plainly, clearly and openly, and not mediately through any creature (Denzinger 1000-1). Moreover, the souls of the saints “clearly behold God, one and triune, as He is” (Denzinger 1304-6).[continued. . .]
Modern Catholic Dictionary, John A Hardon, S.J.
WEBSTER’S NEW COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY:
BEATIFIC. 1. bestowing bliss, blessings, happiness, or the like.
BEATITUDE 1. supreme blessedness, exalted happiness.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Sources, please?
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm
Dogma of particular judgment
The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. Although there has been no formal definition on this point, the dogma is clearly implied in the Union Decree of Eugene IV (1439), which declares that souls leaving their bodies in a state of grace, but in need of purification are cleansed in Purgatory, whereas souls that are perfectly pure are at once admitted to the beatific vision of the Godhead (ipsum Deum unum et trinum) and those who depart in actual mortal sin, or merely with original sin, are at once consigned to eternal punishment, the quality of which corresponds to their sin (paenis tamen disparibus). The doctrine is also in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus in 1274, in the Bull “Benedictus Deus” of Benedict XII, in 1336, and in the professions of faith of Gregory XIII and Benedict XIV.
Existence of particular judgment proved from Scripture
Ecclesiastes 11:9; 12:1 sq.; and Hebrews 9:27, are sometimes quoted in proof of the particular judgment, but though these passages speak of a judgment after death, neither the context nor the force of the words proves that the sacred writer had in mind a judgment distinct from that at the end of the world. The Scriptural arguments in defence of the particular judgment must be indirect. There is no text of which we can certainly say that it expressly affirms this dogma but there are several which teach an immediate retribution after death and thereby clearly imply a particular judgment. Christ represents Lazarus and Dives as receiving their respective rewards immediately after death. They have always been regarded as types of the just man and the sinner. To the penitent thief it was promised that his soul instantly on leaving the body would be in the state of the blessed: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). St. Paul (2 Corinthians 5) longs to be absent from the body that he may be present to the Lord, evidently understanding death to be the entrance into his reward (cf. Philemon 1:21 sq.). Ecclesiasticus 11:28-29 speaks of a retribution at the hour of death, but it may refer to a temporal punishment, such as sudden death in the midst of prosperity, the evil remembrance that survives the wicked or the misfortunes of their children. However, the other texts that have been quoted are sufficient to establish the strict conformity of the doctrine with Scripture teaching. (Cf. Acts 1:25; Apocalypse 20:4-6, 12-14)
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Websters, huh?
How about this one: (merriam-WEBSTER).
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradise
Defintion #1 (A) “Eden” (??? Not heaven ???)
(B) an Intermediate state where the souls of the righteous await resurrection.
(C) Heaven.
Accept my definition? I didn’t define Paradisio. I did give an etymological fact about the word – it is Persian in origin, and means a garden of a rich man. (Hence Garden is #1 historically, not “Heaven”(Sky)).
In the time of Jesus, what does Fr. Hardon quote, reference, or cite to show that it meant “Heaven” as definition #1 to the common person? It is all good and fine that to Modern Christians it’s first connotation (not denotation) is “Heaven” – but that’s self serving prophecy; not scholarship.
Defend Fr. Hardon; Why ought anyone believe that the modern connotation is appropriate when interpreting scripture? Even a man with a doctorate can make mistakes…
Any search of hundreds and even thousands of people who are experts in etymology and word derivation will reveal that “Paradise” means a walled in garden; and that the word comes from Persia. It is hardly a stretch to realize that poor people don’t historically own magnificent structures that are numbered among the seven wonders of the ancient world; but usually the king or local patriarch did.
It is far easier for me to show my delineation of the word is accurate than to show that for Fr. Hardon’s. When, historically, did definition’s (B) and (C) become in vogue? Let Fr. Hardon’s peers answer you.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
The passage in St. Matthew, known as the sermon on the mount, and those in St. Luke, known as the sermon on the plain; are often said to be “the beatitudes” by even the Pope. (Note it’s: Plural beatitude). According to your strictness – these things received on “earth” are “supreme blessedness, and exalted happiness” !!! even if only ONE of them is received and not the others???
Nonsense. Most people who are persecuted say the equivalent of “OW” today, and are only happy about it in heaven when Jesus wipes away their tears. Even tradition doesn’t show Jesus as rejoicing as he fell under the cross; but it is upon getting up that he might have said “see I make all things new.” Look upon many different Catholic church walls, at the stations; and see how many “exalted faces of happiness” you see there.
Look at Simeon of Cyrene; is he “exaltedly happy” in those pictures???! I tell you, he was clueless about what he was receiving!
The word, in the original Greek, of the beatitude is “Makarios”; It is the Latin of the word “blessing” which took the place of the Greek word meaning “happy” when Jerome translated it into Latin. Bravo. An honorable word, both of them; But I still hold to what I originally said; “If Jesus judges you BENEVOLENTLY, why wouldn’t it be? [Beatific].” A beatified saint is one that the Church Judges benevolently, and proclaims publicly. What is it , then, when Jesus HIMSELF does it???
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