I don’t think that premise three follows from one and two. At best one can conclude that God’s action in creating is perfect, or that God’s plan for how creation is to unfold is perfect. Or that creation is the perfect manifestation of what the Creator intended to create. But I don’t see how it follows that a creature, or a creation, must be “perfect” merely because it’s Creator is “perfect?” The conclusion seems to conflate Creator and creation.
The Universe does not sin. Only those created by God that is Angels and humans can sin. Therefore the only imperfections that can come from God who is perfect are from those He had created, that is Angels and humans. The history of our existence is the history of how God is dealing with the imperfection of humans. Our history ends when God can no longer help the imperfection of humanity meaning the Church at that time will not be able to correct the imperfections of humans. God who is perfect had taken this upon Himself to deal with the imperfections that can come from humans who would use their free will to go against their higher calling. We are called into greatness. In this sense our willing to cooperate with God will bring about the perfection which humanity is called into. In this manner every human that will enter Heaven becomes by grace what God is by His nature. The Lord Jesus confirms this truth when He said to those who wanted to stone Him by declaring Himself to be God, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, ‘you are gods’” Jesus wanted those who oppose Him to see that God has called every human being to become what He is by grace. The perfection than must be there in humans but it comes at a price.
Not at the best. At the worst is more acceptable thing. Creation must be perfect since otherwise it has deficiency.
Plan has nothing to do with the content of creation. A creation with perfect plan but with deficiency is imperfect.
You are just trying to evade the problem. A creation with deficiency is imperfect.
Why not? This is illustrated in OP. (2) means that the act of a perfect being must be perfect. Any act has a result. How the result could be imperfect if the act is perfect?
By perfect I mean as good as possible.
Of course, the creation must be as the Creator intended to do. God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
Yes.
That is not correct. Perfect creature requires the three main attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence otherwise the creature cannot perform the perfect act.
I hope that things is more clearer now.
Thank you.
I understand what you are saying but here we are discussing the fact that creation must be perfect in the first place.
Ahh… but what if the perfect creator intended to create an imperfect world? It would be a perfectly designed, perfectly implemented imperfect world.
The plan has everything to do with it! If the plan was to create a physical – and therefore, by definition, changing (and therefore) imperfect – universe, then the perfect plan would be exactly the point!
No… you are just trying to misconstrue the issue. The creation of a physical and therefore changeable universe is, by definition, imperfect. The creation is perfect, because the result is precisely what was planned.
Because you’re applying your standards of ‘perfection’, without considering that the creator’s standard might be different.
How do you know that it is not?
This is your error. Your standards of ‘perfection’ are arbitrary, and you’re asserting them as necessary. That just doesn’t hold up.
No. A ‘perfect creature’ performs the act its creator intended, and performs it perfectly. A perfectly created vase perfectly holds water and flowers… but it does not perfectly play DVDs, since it was not designed to do so. It is not all things (omni-, omni-, omni-), but its own thing perfectly well.
Creation is always perfect. That is what I meant when I said the Universe does not sin. Our sins and the sins of humans do not alter the perfection of the created Universe. The Universe was perfect before the sin of the Angels and perfect before the sin of humans and it still remains this way after the angels and humans sinning. The created material Universe obeys God. Angels and humans however are a different matter. For God to create a species like Himself must involve these species to be created in a perfect Universe. If you are referring to the fact that the creation of angels and humans must be perfect in the first place is not necessary.
The perfect design is to create God over human. Isn’t it?Ahh… but what if the perfect creator intended to create an imperfect world? It would be a perfectly designed, perfectly implemented imperfect world.
Well, a perfect plan then has to have perfect outcome which this is logically impossible since only the state of Godly is perfect and a human being for example cannot become Godly no matter how hard she/he tries. Therefor we cannot have perfect plan for imperfect creation.
Again the perfect plan must have perfect outcome which is logically impossible as it is stated in the previous comment.
How a standard of perfect Creator could be less than perfect? What is the point of creating an imperfect world? A world full of corruption, abuse, anguish, etc. Is that a good a representation of a perfect God and perfect creation?
It is obvious. How could you rationalize all suffering for example? There are many other problems.
Arbitrary? What does that suppose to mean here?This is your error. Your standards of ‘perfection’ are arbitrary, and you’re asserting them as necessary. That just doesn’t hold up.
There are a couple of problems here: (1) Human is not perfect creature (a creature by definition is not perfect, it means lesser) and (2) A creature cannot perform a perfect act.
There are tons of problems in the creation. I have no idea how you can think that creation is perfect.
A perfect being cannot sin due to his/her/its nature since the nature a perfect being must be good.
Free will is always aligned to perform good for a perfect being. Can God do evil?
Well, if you accept that we can do evil and accept the fact that evil is imperfect then we cannot be perfect. I am wondering why you insist that the creation is perfect.
So there is a paradox.
I don’t understand your logic. Human is part of creation and is not perfect hence creation is imperfect.
That is no correct. A perfect being cannot sin so the creation before sin of Angels, Adam and Eve couldn’t be possibly perfect.
Yes, that is necessary to create perfect Angeles and Human to have perfect creation.
No. The perfect design implements the intent of the creator perfectly.
This fails to be convincing. Catholic theology identifies ‘theosis’ as an outcome of salvation – we become perfect in heaven. Therefore, by this notion, your assertion fails: creation ultimately does succeed in the way you’re suggesting it should.
Not logically impossible. Imperfect humans become perfect in heaven, as a direct result of having been created and accepting God’s love. No logical impossibility there.
The point is that all physical creation is ‘imperfect’ by its very nature (i.e., it has potentiality and must, by its nature change). The point is that, despite this ‘imperfection’, God’s plan is that humans may attain to perfection in heaven. This standard is ‘perfection’.
Don’t change the subject: you’re being asked how you know that the present creation isn’t “as good as possible.” The presence of suffering does not imply that this state isn’t “as good as possible.”
It means that the standards that you’re asserting aren’t necessary, but rather, are being freely asserted without attribution. Therefore, they’re arbitrary.
Humans may become perfect. Therefore, there aren’t the problems here that you assert.
Yeah, Gorgias got this exactly right. This is absolutely Bahman.GORGIAS:
I have no idea what you are talking about.
STT
No, the intent is not suffice. The design is only perfect if the outcome is perfect in the first place.
So you become God in Heaven? Then why God didn’t create Gods in the first place if it is possible to become God in Heaven?
We cannot obviously become perfect on our own, God has to perfect us in Heaven so how the plan could be perfect? Perfection in another word should be attainable if the plan is perfect.
The problem is that we cannot prove that we have potential to become perfect. Moreover, we need to become perfect on our own. There is no point if God make us perfect after our death since He could do it in the first place.
The current state of creation is not perfect because we are not God.
My standard is not arbitrary. My standard is reasonable.
There is two problems here. You cannot show that we have potential to become perfect. The process of becoming perfect takes forever.
I agree.
The process of perfection takes forever, in another word it is logically impossible.
Also, let’s not forget that the Bahman account was banned no more than a week ago.
