Paragraph 841 Ccc

[zackonattack]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

While I consider myself a fundamentalist, yes a fundamentalists, Catholic, this paragraph in the CCC has caused me no small amount of grief. I’ve heard explanations, and read countless essays trying to put the best light on the subject as possible. However, I still haven’t come up with a good defense of that paragraph.

First of all, the Muslims can’t possibly be in first place acknowledging the Creator. Their “Creator” is a false god, not the Triune God of Christianity. Do the Muslims acknowledge “a god?”
Certainly they do, and they do it with much more devotion that most Christians, sad to say. But many pagans are very religious, they just worship the wrong gods. It’s even a question if they hold the faith of Abraham, since Abraham’s faith was a gift from God and the ONLY way that one can come to the Father, is through Jesus Christ. As far as I know, no Muslim has their faith in Jesus Christ as Son and Savior.
Further, the Muslims don’t adore the “one merciful God with us,” as the paragraph states. The Muslims most certainly DO NOT adore the “ONE MERCIFUL GOD.” They worship a god popular back in the 7th century, not the TRIUNE GOD.

Maybe someone can explain this paragraph to me. I’m rather well read in theology, church history, domatics etc., but this one I’m having a very difficult time accepting. However, like other theology, I humbly submit to the Teaching Magisterium of the One, Holy, Apostolic Church.

 

[Ghosty]

The Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham, just as the Jews, and just as we do. Are you denying that they profess this?

They have a very distorted understanding of the God of Abraham, but they certainly to profess faith in Him. They did not invent a new deity alongside the God of Abraham, rather they ran with a heretical and erroneous understanding of that same God; that is the historical reality.

The paragraph, incidently, isn’t saything that Muslims are right, nor is it saying that they’re saved. It’s saying that they profess faith in the same God, though they don’t understand Him well at all, and in that they give worship to Him.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Genesis315]

In Catholic theology, when people worship one God–like the Jews or Muslims–it is considered to be the one true God. In Acts 17:23, St. Paul tells pagans they are worshipping the one true God:

“For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you.”

Here are some more sources for this idea that Muslims worship the one true God:

Pope St. Gregory VII (11th century) to a Muslim prince: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X : 12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

Catholic Encyclopedia: As in ecclesiastical language those who by baptism have received faith in Jesus Christ and have pledged Him their fidelity and called the faithful, so the name infidel is given to those who have not been baptized. The term applies not only to all who are ignorant of the true God, such as pagans of various kinds, but also to those who adore Him but do not recognize Jesus Christ, as Jews and Mohammedans.

Also see this chapter on Islam in Hillair Belloc’s "Great Heresies."
ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

Second Vatican Council: The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

I hope that helps

 

[SyCarl]

They may profess to believe in the God of Abraham but the Allah of the Qu’ran cannot be the same the same God of the Bible. Why? Because God would not tell us one thing and the Muslims another. The God of the Bible says “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” The Allah of the Qu’ran says he has no son. So it is one thing to profess the God of Abraham, but if they say He is the Allah of the Qu’ran I do not see how they can.

 

[zackonattack]

The paragraph states that “the plan of salvation INCLUDES,” …ETC.

I do deny that they profess the the God of Abraham. One can profess anything or believe anything or twist anything, but that doesn’t mean they worship the same God, since Abraham worshipped the TRIUNE GOD, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I doubt you will get a Muslim to confess anything like that. Otherwise, they would not have a problem with the Nicene or Apostles Creed.

Now, how does one profess the God of Abraham when one doesn’t believe in the Triune God?

This is one of the problems I’m having with Paragraph 841. We are not talking about the same God. For example, even the Koran differs from the Holy Bible.

" The Koran proclaims that “the Trinity of the Bible” are three Gods: “The Father, Jesus, and Mary”… as declared in the Sura 5:116, "Then God will say: Jesus son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: “Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?”…

... and this is a "gross error" of the Koran, because the Bible does not say that the Trinity is "the Father, Jesus, and Mary", but "the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit"... and God cannot make that gross mistake!... Jesus and the Bible never ever said that Mary is God, never ever said to worship Mary... only you worship God in the Bible.

Muslim scholars see the angel Gabriel as the Holy Spirit."

I don’t think that you believe that Islam worships the same God, because they clearly don’t. The plan of salvation, as written in Holy Writ, from Genesis 3:15 to the end of Revelation is the same. It was the same for Old Testament believers as it is for New Testament believers. God does not change. He is a TRIUNE GOD, that God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

 

[zackonattack]

I agree with CyCarl, and I thank Genesis 315 for all the information posted. I need to study the material you have provided. Man, you did that quickly, so my hat’s off to you.
HOWEVER, Acts 17:23-24 doesn’t really state they are worshipping the True God. They don’t know who they are worshiping, and Paul tells them you don’t find the True God made by hands, or in temples, which is what they were doing. They were like mankind today, not accepting the True God, but choosing one of their own making.
And the fact is, Muslims absolutely deny the Trinity, and without the Trinity, no atonement, no remission of sins, and no plan of salvation (which, I guess this is not the place to discuss). The quote from the Koran in my post pretty much settles the question that it is not the God of Christianity that Muslims worship. And further, Jesus Christ, said NO ONE comes to be except through the Father, and he who rejects me rejects the Father, since the Father and I are one.

NOW PUT that to a Muslim and see what his reaction would be. It would not be accepting, I tell you.

 

[zackonattack]

Second Vatican Council: The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

I hope that helps

See, it’s those kind of statements I don’t understand. The fact is obvious, that the Moslems DON’T adore the one True God. They have murdered people for saying that Jesus is true God and True man. How can Vatican II, with a straight face, claim what that quote says? It is mind numbing to me.

Since there is only ONE way to the Father, and Abraham is a model of faith (and he was saved just as people in New Testament times are saved) he, even tho he probably did not understand the revelation of God as we do now, was worshipping the God of Holy Writ. As Hebrews 11:8-11 says:

"Faithful Abraham

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[a] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised."

Abraham waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God–the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

[zackonattack]

They may profess to believe in the God of Abraham but the Allah of the Qu’ran cannot be the same the same God of the Bible. Why? Because God would not tell us one thing and the Muslims another. The God of the Bible says “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” The Allah of the Qu’ran says he has no son. So it is one thing to profess the God of Abraham, but if they say He is the Allah of the Qu’ran I do not see how they can.

That was a very cogent reply. It says it all. The Muslims and Christians worship a different God. Period!!!

 

[zackonattack]

Genesis315:

“Pope St. Gregory VII (11th century) to a Muslim prince: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.”

The only response I can make to that quote is that Pope ST Gregory VII was trying to be ecumenical, like alot of his counterparts today. (Although I’m not ecumenical since I believe that unity in error is a waste of time, and worse, well…ERROR!)

It’s like Pope Benedict XVI when he quoted the facts about the Muslims and all heck broke out insulting,( and as far as I’m concerned ) Pope Benedict XVI the Great; Gregory probably knew, even back then, that to say ANYTHING, even if it is the truth, about Islam that they consider negative causes chaos. Gregory was being diplomatic, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t want to question a Saint, but what other explanation could there be?

 

[zackonattack]

Sorry for all the posts in a row, but I keep seeing statements I want to respond to. This is it for tonight.

This is a quote that was in Genesis315 post:

“Catechism of Pope St. Pius X : 12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.”

I agree with that quote. Who is correct here? Pope St Pius X or Pope Gregory? By definition Muslims fall under the category of “Indifels,” just like they strongly accuse christians of being.
Have Muslims been baptised and believe in Jesus Christ? NO, they do not!! Do they believe in the Messiah, Jesus christ? NO, they do not!! Do they believe the Messiah has come in the person of Jesus Christ. NO, they do not!!

I feel like (God forgive me) hitting the delete button and make paragraph 841 disappear from the CCC. I LOVE the CCC. I’ve read it through at least twice, and parts of it more. For example, paragraph 841. I believe I’ve read that paragraph at least 10,000 times. And still…

 

[Church_Militant]

The problem here is that you are seeking to interpret something that the Church has already interpreted.

As with the Jews, we have no idea just exactly God will bring about the conversion of these two groups, yet no one can deny that they profess faith in the same God that we and the Jews do.

Does this mean that we make no effort to share the faith with them in Christ-like charity? Of course not!

This may be all the common ground that we have with them, and it is tenuous at best, but it is common ground regardless.

Look again at what the Catechism says.

"The plan of salvation also includes

those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."Now… does anyone profess to know all there is to know about the plan of salvation and how God will deal with them? I doubt it.

The key here is for believers to act like believers and be like Christ while leaving all the rhetoric behind.

Example: Do you like being called an infidel? I don’t.
Will that sort of rhetoric win me over? Absolutely not!

What does Our Lord say about this?
Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

.

Scripture seems a little different than the CCC on this, let’s look.

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14 : 6).

Seeing as Muslims refuse to acknowledge Christ as Savior and Lord how can salvation include them???

 

[myfavoritmartin]

John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:22-23 - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Lev23]

The problem here is that you are seeking to interpret something that the Church has already interpreted.

As with the Jews, we have no idea just exactly God will bring about the conversion of these two groups, yet no one can deny that they profess faith in the same God that we and the Jews do.

Does this mean that we make no effort to share the faith with them in Christ-like charity? Of course not!

This may be all the common ground that we have with them, and it is tenuous at best, but it is common ground regardless.

Look again at what the Catechism says. Now… does anyone profess to know all there is to know about the plan of salvation and how God will deal with them? I doubt it.

The key here is for believers to act like believers and be like Christ while leaving all the rhetoric behind.

Example: Do you like being called an infidel? I don’t.
Will that sort of rhetoric win me over? Absolutely not!

What does Our Lord say about this?
Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.

So when does the Vatican plan to inject the truth into the dialogue plan with the muslims? God has revealed to man his promises are to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel). This “Allah” is a well defined God from the muslims holy writings and teachings. And from their theology, I don’t see one similarity to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Like the rest of the nations, the muslims need to realize God chose Israel as his land and his people, and through them the Messiah, Jesus, came into the world, as foretold by God through the Hebrew prophets.

Somewhere the truth has got to come into play.

I don’t think Elijah would of got on his knees with the representatives of Baal to pray to same God.

 

[Lev23]

In Catholic theology, when people worship one God–like the Jews or Muslims–it is considered to be the one true God. In Acts 17:23, St. Paul tells pagans they are worshipping the one true God:

“For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you.”

Here are some more sources for this idea that Muslims worship the one true God:

I hope that helps

I’m sorry, but this theology seems completely out to lunch. Paul never preached that worship of one God, or idol, means they are worshipping the true God. Paul told those on Mars Hill all those idols they worship are not the true God. He told them there is one true God, and referring to their alter with the inscription “To An Unknown God”, Paul told them they ignorantly worship the one true God, THE GOD THEY DON’T KNOW. And even though they are ignorantly worshipping the one true God they do not know, they are not worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as he desires to be worshipped.

See Hebrews 11:6. God will reveal who he really is to those that earestly seek him. Just because someone worships one God or Idol with their erroneous ideas of who he is, they are not worshipping the one true God nor does he accept it.

God has promised that those who search for him with all their heart, HE will reveal himself, the one true God, to them. I dont know of any other God that makes this promise.

 

[zackonattack]

The problem here is that you are seeking to interpret something that the Church has already interpreted.

As with the Jews, we have no idea just exactly God will bring about the conversion of these two groups, yet no one can deny that they profess faith in the same God that we and the Jews do.

Does this mean that we make no effort to share the faith with them in Christ-like charity? Of course not!

This may be all the common ground that we have with them, and it is tenuous at best, but it is common ground regardless.

Look again at what the Catechism says. Now… does anyone profess to know all there is to know about the plan of salvation and how God will deal with them? I doubt it.

The key here is for believers to act like believers and be like Christ while leaving all the rhetoric behind.

Example: Do you like being called an infidel? I don’t.
Will that sort of rhetoric win me over? Absolutely not!

What does Our Lord say about this?
Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.

I KNOW the church has already interpreted this paragraph. That’s my problem with it. The One Holy, Apostolic Church, as far as I’m concerned has to be correct. That’s why I have such a problem with this #841. No matter how hard I try to put the best interpretation on it, I still come up with the fact that it cannot be defended. All my protestant friends, that know anything, always throw this in my face. They find it absolutely absurd that the Church could make that statement, and this is not from some liberal theologian, which the church is infected by, but in the CCC. God help us!!!

Hilaire Belloc has a chapter in his book “The Great Heresies” on Islam. At the beginning he makes clear that Islam is a heresy. To quote him in his own words: “Mohammedanism was a HERSEY: that is the essential point to grasp before going on any further.” Hillair Belloc’s “Great Heresies, page 42.” Now, I ask you, do you think that a religion that denies Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the sacraments, and christians as infidels, believe in the SAME GOD as Abraham, Issac and Jacob? I think not.

Do I believe that the Muslims PROFESS believe in the God of Abraham. They may think they do, but they are not PROFESSING the Triune God of the bible. Besides, someone can PROFESS that tinker bell makes it rain on the moon, but that doesn’t make it so. I’m not sure what liberal theologian managed to get #841 into the Catechism, but I find it impossible to defend when debating my protestant friends. To me, Holy Writ is absolutely clear, as myfavoritemartin as quoted, that if you deny Jesus Christ as the Son of God, you deny the Father, and if you deny the Father, you are lost.

"Scripture seems a little different than the CCC on this, let’s look.

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14 : 6).

Seeing as Muslims refuse to acknowledge Christ as Savior and Lord how can salvation include them???"

 

[zackonattack]

Church Militant asks “Example: Do you like being called an infidel? I don’t.
Will that sort of rhetoric win me over? Absolutely not!”

I don’t like being called an infidel because I’m not. Calling people that do not accept Islam is a favorite insult used by Muslims. It’s kind of like calling the kettle black. They should be looking in the mirror when they accuse Christians of being infidels. Further, church militant asks if that type of rhetoric will win him over. No, no type of rhetoric will “win one over” to the Truth. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the WORD OF GOD. Since faith is a gift, which comes to us at baptism, or for an adult convert that wasn’t baptized, by hearing the Word of God and then being baptized, and since Muslims do not believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and burn our bibles, they do not “hear” the Word and are not baptized, how in the world can they be talking about the same God as Christians?

Do I think we should try and convert the Muslims and Jews. Absolutely, positively without a doubt. Anyone who is lost needs to be taugh the Truth and brought in from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light. That is by baptism my friends.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

"no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through the faith of Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ" (On Rebuke and Grace, 11)

 

[zackonattack]

AMEN, brother!! myfavorite martin, how can it be any clearer. And that is why I can’t understand how #841 could have gotten into the CCC.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Another ECF at odds…

**- Dionysius of Alexandria **

“If then our faith urges us to have zeal for God and with our entire heart love him; and if we must regard as unclean only those who contemn the really one and only God, and Creator and Lord of heaven and earth and of all things, declaring that he is inferior to and less estimable than some other god; and they attribute wickedness to the all good, or they do not believe that his Beloved is our Saviour Jesus Christ, whatever else he be; but breaking up the marvellous economy and mighty mystery, they believe some of them that he is not God nor Son of God, but others, that he never became man nor came in the flesh, but say that he was a phantasm and shadow-all these John has rightly in his epistle called anti-Christs. Moreover of these the prophet also bore witness, saying: Thy hated ones, O Lord, I have hated, and because of thine enemies I have wasted away. With perfect hatred I have hated them; they are become mine enemies. And these are all they that have among us the appellation of heretics. If however we in the least let them have their way or side with them, then no longer will the precept to love God with our whole heart be observed in its entirety, though that it is which it ever profits us to foster and increase.” - **Dionysius of Alexandria **(Letters, 3).