Paragraph 841 Ccc

[myfavoritmartin]

AMEN, brother!! myfavorite martin, how can it be any clearer. And that is why I can’t understand how #841 could have gotten into the CCC.

Careful zack siding with me a “fundamental non catholic Christian” isn’t real popular round these parts.

 

[zackonattack]

And from ST. JOHN OF DAMASCUS:

trueorthodoxy.org/non_christian_islam_stjohndamascus_fountain_knowledge.shtml

WARNING; This site has some great essays, but needless to say I don’t agree with all that is on the site. It is a very conservative Orthodox website and rant and rave against Catholics, but ignore that. This essay by St John of Damascus is very good.

 

[zackonattack]

Careful zack siding with me a “fundamental non catholic Christian” isn’t real popular round these parts.

Truth is truth!!!

 

[zackonattack]

Now I get the name, my favoritemartin. If I were going to make a wild guess, I’d say you are referring to Martin Luther. Correct?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Now I get the name, my favoritemartin. If I were going to make a wild guess, I’d say you are referring to Martin Luther. Correct?

RIGHT ON! my brother.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

They may profess to believe in the God of Abraham but the Allah of the Qu’ran cannot be the same the same God of the Bible. Why? Because God would not tell us one thing and the Muslims another. The God of the Bible says “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” The Allah of the Qu’ran says he has no son. So it is one thing to profess the God of Abraham, but if they say He is the Allah of the Qu’ran I do not see how they can.

Let’s say I read in news about an actress A. A lot of are lies. It speaks about her as being arrogant and mean, they make up false details about her family (say the article says that she has 5 children but she has only 2) and much more. I believe what the author says and so my image of that actress is very far from truth. Does that mean that I actually believe in the existence of another actress?

No.

The same applies to Muslims. They believe in the God of Abraham but they have it all mixed up.

My question to you is. When do you stop believing in One God and start believing in a false God? Most protestants believe in Jesus that didn’t establish Our Mother Church. Some of them believe in God that hates people. There are many other distinctions. So does that mean that unless someone recognizes the true image of God he worships a false God?

 

[Mannyfit75]

AMEN, brother!! myfavorite martin, how can it be any clearer. And that is why I can’t understand how #841 could have gotten into the CCC.

I have one question for you. Do you believe the Jews to be in the same level as Muslims?

By your logic, you do not claim that Muslims do not worship the same Abrahamic God, we Catholics and Jews professed.

They do acknowledge in One God. In some light, they contain partial truths.

The Catholic Church in its own teachings does not affirm the sayings of Mohammed as true. What Para 841 does say,

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please note the bolded words. For one, the Muslim acknowledge a Creator, as we do. They hold the faith of Abraham, a true statement, and they Adore One God, just as we do.

They do not however, believe in the Trinity like we do. Much like the Jews who do not affirm the belief in the Trinity.

We both know our faith has its origins in Judaism. Just because the Jews don’t believe in the Trinity, you might as well throw them at the same level as the Muslims.

 

[rwoehmke]

There is a document issued by the Vatican in recent years titled something like Iesus dominus which states that everyone who is saved is saved through Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church which dispenses the merits earned by Jesus WHETHER THEY EXPLICITLY BELIEVE AND ACKNOWLEDGE this fact or not. So one would say that any Muslim or Jew who is saved is saved by Jesus Christ through His Church. Jews also do not acknowledge the Triune God, but this is the God in the Old Testament, a Jewish Document about a God that we acknowledge as being Triune. Now if as you argue the Muslims are not merely lacking in understanding, but really believe in a second god, how do you account for the Jews and our acceptance of their God as our Triune God?

If someone were to hold a cylindrical object in front of you edge on and you could not observe the top or bottom, unless your depth perception were exceptional, you would think you were observing a rectangular object. Such an observation would not make the cylinder a rectangular object , it would only appear so from your point of view. Just so, Jews and Muslims are “seeing” God from a different point of view than Christians. That doesn’t change the reality at all.

As far as that goes, we who are Christians differ among ourselves on exactly who God is and what he teaches, not because the Church teaches us incorrectly, but because our understanding is also based on our own experience and prejudices.

 

[SyCarl]

There is a difference between the Jews and Muslims. The Jews do not accept the New Testament but they do accept the Old Testament. The God of the New Testament and the Old Testament are clearly the same God. The Jews do not accept the new revelation of God through the New Testament. But God in the New Testament does not contradict God in the Old Testament. The Allah of the Qu’ran does contradict the God of the New Testament. God tells us that Jesus is His Son. Allah says He has no son. The Allah who revealed the Qu’ran cannot be the God of Christianity because God does not contradict Himself. Assuming the New Testament is true, if Muslims profess the God of Abraham, they cannot accept the Qu’ran, which contradicts what God has said in the New Testament.

 

[Mannyfit75]

There is a difference between the Jews and Muslims. The Jews do not accept the New Testament but they do accept the Old Testament. The God of the New Testament and the Old Testament are clearly the same God. The Jews do not accept the new revelation of God through the New Testament. But God in the New Testament does not contradict God in the Old Testament. The Allah of the Qu’ran does contradict the God of the New Testament. God tells us that Jesus is His Son. Allah says He has no son. The Allah who revealed the Qu’ran cannot be the God of Christianity because God does not contradict Himself. Assuming the New Testament is true, if Muslims profess the God of Abraham, they cannot accept the Qu’ran, which contradicts what God has said in the New Testament.

Para 841 doesn’t acknowledge the truth that lies within the Q’uran. The Catholic Church does not profess the same common belief stated in the Q’uran. She does acknowledge One God, Abrahamic faith, and that God is the Creator of all things.

There is no contradiction in Scripture here, nor Tradition. I think the OP has taken Para 841 completely out of context, and fail to look at the words which I bolded above.

Let us break this down.

statement One Para 841 Muslim Acknowledge that God is:

1. the Creator. Is this statement affirm by Christians?
2. Hold faith of Abraham. Do we hold the same Abrahamic faith?
3. Adore the One, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. Do we acknowledge that God is One, merciful, and the final judge on the Last Day?

Answer this for me.

 

[SyCarl]

Para 841 doesn’t acknowledge the truth that lies within the Q’uran. The Catholic Church does not profess the same common belief stated in the Q’uran. She does acknowledge One God, Abrahamic faith, and that God is the Creator of all things.

There is no contradiction in Scripture here, nor Tradition. I think the OP has taken Para 841 completely out of context, and fail to look at the words which I bolded above.

Let us break this down.

statement One Para 841 Muslim Acknowledge that God is:

1. the Creator. Is this statement affirm by Christians?
2. Hold faith of Abraham. Do we hold the same Abrahamic faith?
3. Adore the One, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. Do we acknowledge that God is One, merciful, and the final judge on the Last Day?

Answer this for me.

1. The Muslims acknowledge that Allah is the Creator.
2. They profess to hold the Abrahamic faith. Is it the same Abrahamic faith we profess? I don’t think so since as stated above the God of our faith says He has a Son. While Allah says he does not have a son.
3. We acknowledge that God is one, merciful and the final judge. Do the Muslim adore that same one merciful God? I don’t see how they can unless they reject the Qu’ran. Allah who is believed to have dictated the Qu’ran through the archangel Gabriel contradicts the one merciful God so how can he be the one merciful God, who doesn’t contradict Himself. The Muslims may believe Allah is the same God but that doesn’t make it so.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1. The Muslims acknowledge that Allah is the Creator.
2. They profess to hold the Abrahamic faith. Is it the same Abrahamic faith we profess? I don’t think so since as stated above the God of our faith says He has a Son. While Allah says he does not have a son.
3. We acknowledge that God is one, merciful and the final judge. Do the Muslim adore that same one merciful God? I don’t see how they can unless they reject the Qu’ran. Allah who is believed to have dictated the Qu’ran through the archangel Gabriel contradicts the one merciful God so how can he be the one merciful God, who doesn’t contradict Himself. The Muslims may believe Allah is the same God but that doesn’t make it so.

Carl,

Well, you have not answer the question which I have given. I ask you as Christian not what Muslims believe that is contrary to the Catholic faith.

So again.

1. Do we Christians believe that God is the Creator? Yes or no.
2. Do we believe our faith stem from Abraham (through baptizm we are made spiritual children of Abraham)? Yes or no.
3. Do we as Christian believe that God is One and Merciful? Yes or No.

 

[SyCarl]

Carl,

Well, you have not answer the question which I have given. I ask you as Christian not what Muslims believe that is contrary to the Catholic faith.

So again.

1. Do we Christians believe that God is the Creator? Yes or no.
2. Do we believe our faith stem from Abraham (through baptizm we are made spiritual children of Abraham)? Yes or no.
3. Do we as Christian believe that God is One and Merciful? Yes or No.

The questions are now worded somewhat differently. The answer to all 3 is yes, we certainly believe all those things.

If you add a fourth question:

1. Do the Muslims believe in the same God that we do? They profess to but if it is the Allah who dictated the Qu’ran. they in fact do not. They worship an Allah who has tried to look like the God of Abraham but who contradicts that God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The questions are now worded somewhat differently. The answer to all 3 is yes, we certainly believe all those things.

So in some partial way, the Muslim affirm the belief in One God. That part itself is a True Statement.

If you add a fourth question:

1. Do the Muslims believe in the same God that we do?

They believe in One God just like the Jews so yes.

They profess to but if it is the Allah who dictated the Qu’ran. they in fact do not. They worship an Allah who has tried to look like the God of Abraham but who contradicts that God.

Muslims themselves or their religion does not have the fullness of Truth which is found only in Jesus Christ. They like the Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as God-Man. We are the only Monotheistic faith that affirms that Jesus is the Word made flesh.

The Catholic Church has affim the Jews even though they do not recognized that Jesus is the Messiah, we believe them to be our elder brothers and sisters.

In the same respect, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Muslims believe in One God.

There is a line, we as Christians cannot accept. We cannot deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, nor can we accept the prophet Mohammed’s teachings because there are no other prophet or new revelations. The last prophet was Jesus, who is both Prophet, Priest, and King.

Mohammed himself before his conversion was expose to Christianity. Only them he realized the concept of a One God. He has distorted the Christian view from Christians who had been banished by the Church for promoting heretical doctrines like Arianism, others.

Islam only has partial truths which the Para 841 implies. You cannot use Para 841 that Islam is a true religion of God.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

God is a being.

Do you believe that one can have a distorted view about a nature of another being? If I believe in rumors (untruths) about John and thus think that he is very rich and selfish (while he is not), do I wish that the person people call John would give me money when I wish John would give me money?

If you answer yes, then tell me why is it so hard to accept that Muslims are being taught untruth about God when they ‘learn’ about Allah (which by the way is simply means God)?

 

[Mannyfit75]

God is a being.

Do you believe that one can have a distorted view about a nature of another being? If I believe in rumors (untruths) about John and thus think that he is very rich and selfish (while he is not), do I wish that the person people call John would give me money when I wish John would give me money?

If you answer yes, then tell me why is it so hard to accept that Muslims are being taught untruth about God when they ‘learn’ about Allah (which by the way is simply means God)?

I talked to a Iraqi Caldean Catholic and he told me in their Liturgy, they call God Allah. Allah is just the Arabic word for God.

And you know Iraqi Caldean Catholic believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and belove that he is both True Man and True God.

 

[zackonattack]

I have one question for you. Do you believe the Jews to be in the same level as Muslims?

By your logic, you do not claim that Muslims do not worship the same Abrahamic God, we Catholics and Jews professed.

They do acknowledge in One God. In some light, they contain partial truths.

The Catholic Church in its own teachings does not affirm the sayings of Mohammed as true. What Para 841 does say,

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please note the bolded words. For one, the Muslim acknowledge a Creator, as we do. They hold the faith of Abraham, a true statement, and they Adore One God, just as we do.

They do not however, believe in the Trinity like we do. Much like the Jews who do not affirm the belief in the Trinity.

We both know our faith has its origins in Judaism. Just because the Jews don’t believe in the Trinity, you might as well throw them at the same level as the Muslims.

At this point in time, I do believe the Jews to be on the same level as the Muslims (i can hear them both screaming about that). There is one way of salvation and that is through Jesus Christ. The Jews, as a group, rejected the Messiah.
Anyone can “acknowledge” a creator. The Indians acknowledge “mother earth,” the pagans “acknowledge” the goddess sophia.
And the Muslims may “profess” the faith of Abraham, but they are confused because Abraham was a model of faith, according to Hewbrews 11:8-11, I believe. Abraham’s faith was in the God of the bible, and in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as he was given the light to understand it. But Muslims DENY Jesus Christ. It this day and age there is no excuse for that. Back in Old Testament times some of this was like “seeing through a glass darkley.” But there was no DENYING the Truth.

To back up some, I DO through the Jews onto the same level as the Muslims. Or, to be more correct, the Jews throw themselves to the same level as the Muslims. They both deny Jesus Christ. I don’t make the rules or it’s not my plan of salvation and I go by what the revealed, written Word of God says. And along with all the great Fathers of the Church, where tradition contradicts Scripture, it is the scripture that sets one straight. That’s why God had His word in written form. So doctrine could be objectively verified. How many times have you heard people say something like “the Lord told me to do this or that or believe this or that.” Well, if it contradicts the written Word, throw it out.
A lot of Christians don’t understand the Trinity, but they don’t deny it–unless they are mumbling the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed and just going through the motions. If that is the case, they might as well remain silent.

 

[SyCarl]

So in some partial way, the Muslim affirm the belief in One God. That part itself is a True Statement.

If you add a fourth question:

They believe in One God just like the Jews so yes.

Muslims themselves or their religion does not have the fullness of Truth which is found only in Jesus Christ. They like the Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as God-Man. We are the only Monotheistic faith that affirms that Jesus is the Word made flesh.

The Catholic Church has affim the Jews even though they do not recognized that Jesus is the Messiah, we believe them to be our elder brothers and sisters.

In the same respect, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Muslims believe in One God.

There is a line, we as Christians cannot accept. We cannot deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, nor can we accept the prophet Mohammed’s teachings because there are no other prophet or new revelations. The last prophet was Jesus, who is both Prophet, Priest, and King.

Mohammed himself before his conversion was expose to Christianity. Only them he realized the concept of a One God. He has distorted the Christian view from Christians who had been banished by the Church for promoting heretical doctrines like Arianism, others.

Islam only has partial truths which the Para 841 implies. You cannot use Para 841 that Islam is a true religion of God.

Perhaps I can liken it to this. A man arises who says he is Jesus in the second coming. He performs miracles and acquires a following who believe he is the Son of God. However instead of love your enemy he teaches hate your enemy. Would these people be following the same Jesus that we do? They would profess that they do, that he is Jesus returned. Would we say though that they are following the true Jesus?

What we have in Islam is Allah who claims to be the God of Abraham but he says different things than the the God of Abraham. Does that mean they follow the same God as we do any more than the followers of the false Christ would follow the same Christ we do?

 

[SyCarl]

At this point in time, I do believe the Jews to be on the same level as the Muslims (i can hear them both screaming about that). There is one way of salvation and that is through Jesus Christ. The Jews, as a group, rejected the Messiah.
Anyone can “acknowledge” a creator. The Indians acknowledge “mother earth,” the pagans “acknowledge” the goddess sophia.
And the Muslims may “profess” the faith of Abraham, but they are confused because Abraham was a model of faith, according to Hewbrews 11:8-11, I believe. Abraham’s faith was in the God of the bible, and in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as he was given the light to understand it. But Muslims DENY Jesus Christ. It this day and age there is no excuse for that. Back in Old Testament times some of this was like “seeing through a glass darkley.” But there was no DENYING the Truth.

To back up some, I DO through the Jews onto the same level as the Muslims. Or, to be more correct, the Jews throw themselves to the same level as the Muslims. They both deny Jesus Christ. I don’t make the rules or it’s not my plan of salvation and I go by what the revealed, written Word of God says. And along with all the great Fathers of the Church, where tradition contradicts Scripture, it is the scripture that sets one straight. That’s why God had His word in written form. So doctrine could be objectively verified. How many times have you heard people say something like “the Lord told me to do this or that or believe this or that.” Well, if it contradicts the written Word, throw it out.
A lot of Christians don’t understand the Trinity, but they don’t deny it–unless they are mumbling the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed and just going through the motions. If that is the case, they might as well remain silent.

I do not believe the Jews are on the same level of the Muslims. They do worship the one true God. They do not accept His revelation as set out in the New Testament but they do not believe in a God who has contradicted the New Testament. They worship the true God, but not in the fullness of His revelation. We believe that God is the God of both the Old and New Testament. The Muslims worship Allah who contradicts our God. The situation might be different if Allah did not contradict God.

 

[zackonattack]

I talked to a Iraqi Caldean Catholic and he told me in their Liturgy, they call God Allah. Allah is just the Arabic word for God.

And you know Iraqi Caldean Catholic believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and belove that he is both True Man and True God.

And the word “God” is generic. You have to define your terms. And do they, in the Caldean Catholic church recite the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed. If so, they are defining what they mean by the word God. Do Muslims recite the Nicene Creed. No, of course not. Because their God is not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Son and Saviour. Anyone can use the word God, but not everyone means the same thing. That’s why at all these “ecumenical” prays the word God is used, so as not to offend anyone, no matter what religion they represent. But use the words Jesus Christ and see what happens. Look at the poor Navy Captain that insisted closing his prayers in the name of Jesus Christ. He was thrown out of the Navy for that one, or at least demoted. Ask the Muslims to substitute the word Jehovah for Allah in their prayers and see what happens. The God of Abraham was JEHOVAH. If the Muslims worship the God of Abraham they would not be opposed to using the name Jehovah, which they refuse to do.