Paragraph 841 Ccc

[zackonattack]

I do not believe the Jews are on the same level of the Muslims. They do worship the one true God. They do not accept His revelation as set out in the New Testament but they do not believe in a God who has contradicted the New Testament. They worship the true God, but not in the fullness of His revelation. We believe that God is the God of both the Old and New Testament. The Muslims worship Allah who contradicts our God. The situation might be different if Allah did not contradict God.

Sorry, but they do not worship the true God, as revelation has been explained to us. Jesus was true God and true Man. The Jews deny Jesus Christ. Therefore they deny the TRUE GOD. And you got that part right, about them not worshipping in the fullness. If they didn’t understand that might be one thing, but they actively DENY Jesus Christ. Until they accept Jesus Christ they are lost. Once again, that’s not my rules, but that is according to Jesus Christ Himself. Jews need to be saved just like anyone else.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, if it contradicts the written Word, throw it out.
A lot of Christians don’t understand the Trinity, but they don’t deny it–unless they are mumbling the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed and just going through the motions. If that is the case, they might as well remain silent.

841 doesn’t contradict the Word of God. You just put it out of context. If you read the previous posts which I wrote down you would at least try to understand its meaning.

Para 841 is not an use to justify that Islam is real religion of God. It only acknowledges that Muslim believe in One God, Faith in Abraham, and that God is the Creator.

All of the three statement are true.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And the word “God” is generic. You have to define your terms. And do they, in the Caldean Catholic church recite the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed. If so, they are defining what they mean by the word God. Do Muslims recite the Nicene Creed. No, of course not. Because their God is not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Son and Saviour. Anyone can use the word God, but not everyone means the same thing. That’s why at all these “ecumenical” prays the word God is used, so as not to offend anyone, no matter what religion they represent. But use the words Jesus Christ and see what happens. Look at the poor Navy Captain that insisted closing his prayers in the name of Jesus Christ. He was thrown out of the Navy for that one, or at least demoted. Ask the Muslims to substitute the word Jehovah for Allah in their prayers and see what happens. The God of Abraham was JEHOVAH. If the Muslims worship the God of Abraham they would not be opposed to using the name Jehovah, which they refuse to do.

They don’t profess the Nicene Creed. They do believe in a Singular God. I use to believe what you believe that Muslim worship a different God.

When I done my research on it, there is some truths in Islam. There are some truths in Protestantism, and some truths in E. Orthodoxy. One can only find Complete fullness of Truth and that can only be founded in the Catholic Church.

Second, Jehovah is a mistranslation. It is YHWH, or Yahweh. The Hebrew language does not have vowels.

 

[SyCarl]

Sorry, but they do not worship the true God, as revelation has been explained to us. Jesus was true God and true Man. The Jews deny Jesus Christ. Therefore they deny the TRUE GOD. And you got that part right, about them not worshipping in the fullness. If they didn’t understand that might be one thing, but they actively DENY Jesus Christ. Until they accept Jesus Christ they are lost. Once again, that’s not my rules, but that is according to Jesus Christ Himself. Jews need to be saved just like anyone else.

I would disagree. I do not think that anyone could say that before Jesus that the Jews did not worship the one true God as He had been revealed to that time. When Jesus came He was a Jew and He spoke of the Father being the God of his fellow Jews.The Jews did not change Gods. They erred in not accepting Jesus as being the same as the God of the Old Testament but they didn’t change the God they believed in. Paul clearly recognizes that the Jews follow the same God but that they do so wrongly. That does not mean that they follow a different God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Perhaps I can liken it to this. A man arises who says he is Jesus in the second coming. He performs miracles and acquires a following who believe he is the Son of God. However instead of love your enemy he teaches hate your enemy. Would these people be following the same Jesus that we do? They would profess that they do, that he is Jesus returned. Would we say though that they are following the true Jesus?

What we have in Islam is Allah who claims to be the God of Abraham but he says different things than the the God of Abraham. Does that mean they follow the same God as we do any more than the followers of the false Christ would follow the same Christ we do?

Is not God one God? If the Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in a singular God then they must be the same.

Only one of them is Fully Truth, which is Catholic Christianity. They are only partial. Note I said partial again.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I would disagree. I do not think that anyone could say that before Jesus that the Jews did not worship the one true God as He had been revealed to that time. When Jesus came He was a Jew and He spoke of the Father being the God of his fellow Jews.The Jews did not change Gods. They erred in not accepting Jesus as being the same as the God of the Old Testament but they didn’t change the God they believed in. Paul clearly recognizes that the Jews follow the same God but that they do so wrongly. That does not mean that they follow a different God.

You know this is exactly the point where self-intepreting of Para 841 without looking at it in the light of the teaching of the CC can be distorted.

Carl,

as you can see, zack is using the claim that Jews don’t worship the same God as we do because they deny the Messiah. If that were true, then the God of the Christians is also false because Jesus is a Jew.

He is using the same argument to claim the same for Muslim do not worship the same God as we do.

There is only One God, which all three Monotheistic faiths professes. That is the point of Para 841.

What Para 841 doesn’t say that neither Islam or Jews are completely true.

Only the CC is the fullness of truth.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Fine then…so are non-Catholics non-Christians? Do they believe in a different Jesus? I mean, ‘their’ Jesus didn’t start Our Mother Church, for some he is not equally man and God etc. So does that imply they worship a different ‘Jesus’?

 

[zackonattack]

Fine then…so are non-Catholics non-Christians? Do they believe in a different Jesus? I mean, ‘their’ Jesus didn’t start Our Mother Church, for some he is not equally man and God etc. So does that imply they worship a different ‘Jesus’?

Any that hold the Jesus is not fully God and fully man, are not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

 

[zackonattack]

You know this is exactly the point where self-intepreting of Para 841 without looking at it in the light of the teaching of the CC can be distorted.

Carl,

as you can see, zack is using the claim that Jews don’t worship the same God as we do because they deny the Messiah. If that were true, then the God of the Christians is also false because Jesus is a Jew.

He is using the same argument to claim the same for Muslim do not worship the same God as we do.

There is only One God, which all three Monotheistic faiths professes. That is the point of Para 841.

What Para 841 doesn’t say that neither Islam or Jews are completely true.

Only the CC is the fullness of truth.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Any that hold the Jesus is not fully God and fully man, are not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

Of course. But are they worshiping a different ‘Jesus’.

If you understand God incorrectly (which applies to many Protestants but even to some Catholics) and you worship that incorrect image of God - are you actually worshiping a different ‘god’ altogether?

Yes or no?

 

[zackonattack]

zackonattack:
Jesus was a Jew, of course. Before New Testament times the Jews were the chosen people of God. They were looking for the Messiah to come. The Messiah did come, but they rejected him. And as further revelation continues, some of the individual Jews accepted Jesus and are saved. But for those who continue to deny Christ they are lost, unless they change their mind.

Anyway, #841 mentions Muslims as specially in the plan of salvation. That’s my objection. No one, Jew, Gentile, whatever, can be saved in any other way than through faith in Jesus Christ.

I don’t know if you didn’t read my other statements or what, but to deny Jesus as the God-man, and an co-equal member of the Triune Godhead, is to worship a God other than the one revealed in Holy Writ. When the Muslims end their prayers “in the name of Jesus,” then I will know they are worshiping the God I worship. But that will never happen because they have a different god.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Jesus was a Jew, of course. Before New Testament times the Jews were the chosen people of God. They were looking for the Messiah to come. The Messiah did come, but they rejected him. And as further revelation continues, some of the individual Jews accepted Jesus and are saved. But for those who continue to deny Christ they are lost, unless they change their mind.

Anyway, #841 mentions Muslims as specially in the plan of salvation. That’s my objection. No one, Jew, Gentile, whatever, can be saved in any other way than through faith in Jesus Christ.

I don’t know if you didn’t read my other statements or what, but to deny Jesus as the God-man, and an co-equal member of the Triune Godhead, is to worship a God other than the one revealed in Holy Writ. When the Muslims end their prayers “in the name of Jesus,” then I will know they are worshiping the God I worship. But that will never happen because they have a different god.

But you still haven’t answered my questions.

Do you believe that one can have a distorted view about a nature of another being? If I believe in rumors (untruths) about John and thus think that he is very rich and selfish (while he is not), do I wish that the person people call John would give me money when I wish John would give me money?

If you understand God incorrectly (which applies to many Protestants but even to some Catholics) and you worship that incorrect image of God - are you actually worshiping a different ‘god’ altogether?

Yes or no?

 

[zackonattack]

Of course. But are they worshiping a different ‘Jesus’.

If you understand God incorrectly (which applies to many Protestants but even to some Catholics) and you worship that incorrect image of God - are you actually worshiping a different ‘god’ altogether?

Yes or no?

Yes. If you think Jesus is “a god” but not Almighty God, you are worshipping a God different than the one revealed in Scripture. If you deny the Trinity then all your theology falls to the ground as worthless, or worse than that, you deny the faith.If I worship a God that i think has 10 heads, is 6 feet tall, weights 240 pounds with blond hair and blue eyes, I worship a false God no matter what I may think. That’s why who God is is revealed in the Scriptures, so that no one can have any doubt. Some religions have millions of gods. To them they are worshipping God. But it is a different God than what I worship. Wow, I think i’ve beat that point to death.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yes. If you think Jesus is “a god” but not Almighty God, you are worshipping a God different than the one revealed in Scripture. If you deny the Trinity then all your theology falls to the ground as worthless, or worse than that, you deny the faith.If I worship a God that i think has 10 heads, is 6 feet tall, weights 240 pounds with blond hair and blue eyes, I worship a false God no matter what I may think. That’s why who God is is revealed in the Scriptures, so that no one can have any doubt. Some religions have millions of gods. To them they are worshipping God. But it is a different God than what I worship. Wow, I think i’ve beat that point to death.

So do protestants worship a false God?

 

[zackonattack]

Some do and some don’t. Those that hold to the Trinity, and without the Trinity all your theology fails, are worshipping the True God. The Nicene Creed actually says it all. On the other hand, if you are a Mormon, or a Jehovah’s Witness, or a 7th Day Adventists, or others that hold Jesus to be a nice man but not God as stated in the Nicene Creed, then you are worshipping a false God, no matter what you think you are doing. Arius caused a horrible problem in the church, especially for the Eastern Church. His view of Jesus Christ was so flawed he was labeled a hertic.

 

[zackonattack]

But you still haven’t answered my questions.

You ask: "Do you believe that one can have a distorted view about a nature of another being? If I believe in rumors (untruths) about John and thus think that he is very rich and selfish (while he is not), do I wish that the person people call John would give me money when I wish John would give me money?

If I follow your question, yes I believe one can have a distorted view about the nature of another being. We aren’t infallable, but there is no excuse since the written Word of God, the Church, the excellent Creeds, etc., to not know the nature of the Triune God. I believe, for example, the Jehovah Witnesses, while terrific people are grossly misled and DO NOT worship in Spirit and TRUTH. They think Jesus was a nice guy, “the greates MAN who ever lived,” but not THE GOD. To me, if you firmly believe in the Nicene Creed you are on sacred ground. Those people that put that creed together were certainly God-inspired to be able to do that.
We are getting off the point tho. #841 basically says that you can be saved WITHOUT belief in Jesus Christ as true God and true man. I don’t agree with that, and that’s why I have a problem. If that paragraph was spoken as an infallable doctrine of the church to believe or else, then I would really have a problem on my hands since I disagree with it completely. If the church were to say you MUST AGREE with that statement or that Mary is the co-redeemer with Christ I’d be, because of my conscience, become a Lutheran or something. I must search the scriptures to make sure that what is being taugh is not contradictory to the written word. Even the early Fathers teach that. I am really upset about that paragraph. i’ve tried to defend it and find it impossible to do.

 

[davidv]

We are getting off the point tho. #841 basically says that you can be saved WITHOUT belief in Jesus Christ as true God and true man. I don’t agree with that,

I reread 841 and I cannot find anything in it that says this. Please explain.

 

[zackonattack]

I reread 841 and I cannot find anything in it that says this. Please explain.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”​

The absurdity of that paragraph is obvious. “The plan of salvation includes those who acknowledge the Creator AND IN FIRST PLACE AMONGST WHOM ARE THE MUSLIMS.”

How can any of the people responsible for that statement say it with a straight face. Would you defend the Indians that acknowledge a “creator”? Or the earth worshippers who acknowledge a creator? Like all these posts have stated, ANYONE CAN PROFESS ANYTHING. They deny the Triune Godhead, therefore they do not worship the CREATOR of the bible. They worship a false god and are therefore, unless repentant of that, headed to hell. Plain and simple. Just like the Muslims say the Christians are all headed to hell. We worship a DIFFERENT GOD. Didn’t you read any of these posts? Do you think a Muslim would end their prayer “in the name of Jesus,” or think that the Holy Spirit even exists or that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts a person of his faith and gives the gift of faith. The Muslims think you must EARN your way to heaven, just like all the pagan religions in the world. Christianity is totally different. Of course, that’s because we have a DIFFERENT God.

When the Muslims will, in faith, recite the Nicene Creed, I will then believe they worship the same God as I do. And not until then. Delete Paragraph 841 from the CCC. it is impossible to defend.
And once again, you don’t see anything in 841 that says you can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe you can’t see it, but I can. The Muslim creator, is NOT the Triune God, Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit. Therefore their creator does not INCLUDE Jesus Christ. Therefore, they worship a false god. Therefore they are lost.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You know this is exactly the point where self-intepreting of Para 841 without looking at it in the light of the teaching of the CC can be distorted

In this Para you also put your own self-interpretation. Let me quote you, you wrote:

Paragraph 841 from the CCC. it is impossible to defend.
And once again, you don’t see anything in 841 that says you can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe you can’t see it, but I can. The Muslim creator, is NOT the Triune God, Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit. Therefore their creator does not INCLUDE Jesus Christ. Therefore, they worship a false god. Therefore they are lost.

It is easy to defend. Just as the Muslims believe in One God, so do we. So as the Jews believe in a One God, so do we. How is that any different.

You have you read what I wrote in the previous thread, you would understand. Perhaps I may have enlighten once again.

Here is the repost:

Muslims themselves or their religion does not have the fullness of Truth which is found only in Jesus Christ. They like the Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as God-Man. **We are the only Monotheistic faith that affirms that Jesus is the Word made flesh. **

The Catholic Church has affim the Jews even though they do not recognized that Jesus is the Messiah, we believe them to be our elder brothers and sisters because they worship the same God we do.

In the same respect, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Muslims believe in One God.

There is a line, we as Christians cannot accept. We cannot deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, nor can we accept the prophet Mohammed’s teachings because there are no other prophet or new revelations. The last prophet is Jesus, who is both Prophet, Priest, and King.

Mohammed himself before his conversion was expose to Christianity. Only them he realized the concept of a One God. He has distorted the Christian view from Christians who had been banished by the Church for promoting heretical doctrines like Arianism, others.

Islam only **has partial truths which the Para 841 **implies. You cannot use Para 841 that Islam is a true religion of God.

In other words, there is no contradiction in this passage.

 

[zackonattack]

In this Para you also put your own self-interpretation. Let me quote you, you wrote:

Paragraph 841 from the CCC. it is impossible to defend.
And once again, you don’t see anything in 841 that says you can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe you can’t see it, but I can. The Muslim creator, is NOT the Triune God, Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit. Therefore their creator does not INCLUDE Jesus Christ. Therefore, they worship a false god. Therefore they are lost.

It is easy to defend. Just as the Muslims believe in One God, so do we. So as the Jews believe in a One God, so do we. How is that any different.

You have you read what I wrote in the previous thread, you would understand. Perhaps I may have enlighten once again.

Here is the repost:

Muslims themselves or their religion does not have the fullness of Truth which is found only in Jesus Christ. They like the Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as God-Man. **We are the only Monotheistic faith that affirms that Jesus is the Word made flesh. **

The Catholic Church has affim the Jews even though they do not recognized that Jesus is the Messiah, we believe them to be our elder brothers and sisters because they worship the same God we do.

In the same respect, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Muslims believe in One God.

There is a line, we as Christians cannot accept. We cannot deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, nor can we accept the prophet Mohammed’s teachings because there are no other prophet or new revelations. The last prophet is Jesus, who is both Prophet, Priest, and King.

Mohammed himself before his conversion was expose to Christianity. Only them he realized the concept of a One God. He has distorted the Christian view from Christians who had been banished by the Church for promoting heretical doctrines like Arianism, others.

Islam only **has partial truths which the Para 841 **implies. You cannot use Para 841 that Islam is a true religion of God.

In other words, there is no contradiction in this passage.

Im not the one that wrote 841. And you are right, you can’t use it to state that Islam is a true religion, because it ISN’T. I can’t say it in any more ways. Muslims worship a different God, not the Triune God. No one wants to answer me. When a Muslim ends a prayer in the name of Jesus or recites the Nicene Creed and mean it, then I will say they worship the same God as I do. But not until then. The Muslims ARE NOT INCLUDED in the plan of salvation because they worship a FALSE GOD. There is one way to salvation and that is through JESUS CHRIST. No other way. They do not believe it Jesus Christ, therefore no salvation for them.