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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Catholic Church wrote 841 and yes, without Jesus Christ there is no salvation.
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zackonattack
Guest
Explain to me why Moslems are INCLUDED in the plan of salvation if they do not believe in Jesus Christ. It can’t be done.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Because they believe in One God, One Creator, and they have Abraham Faith.
I am going to quote you another citation from the Catechism itself. This may help you understand this more.
If you use 841 by itself, it doesn’t make sense. However, if you read the other para about Non-Christians faith, it does make sense.
It is possible for a Muslim man who does not know Christ, but in his heart desire to please God, can be saved. Since God can work outside of his Church’s sacraments.
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zackonattack
Guest
mannyfit75:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337”
Thanks for the follow up. That does make it somewhat clearer, however, in this day and age it is their own fault. I’m talking about the Muslims that makes statements condemning Christians, deny Jesus Christ, the Trinity etc. For those who have never heard of christianity (if that is possible today) then I can see them as in a different category. I’m dealing with the educated Muslims that know what Christianity teaches and denies it or even worse, outright condemns it. And I can’t state it enough I guess, the Muslims DO NOT worship the same God as Abraham. The God of Abraham tells who He is and his name is Jehovah. No Muslim would be caught saying that name. If they did, to the chopping block for that person. Once again, when a Muslim recites the Nicene Creed in faith, then I will know they worship the same God as I do. Until then, no deal. They deny just about EVERYTHING in the Nicene Creed, which is a cogent, brilliant statement of what it is to be Christian. But thanks for the further explanation. It is appreciated.
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337”
Thanks for the follow up. That does make it somewhat clearer, however, in this day and age it is their own fault. I’m talking about the Muslims that makes statements condemning Christians, deny Jesus Christ, the Trinity etc. For those who have never heard of christianity (if that is possible today) then I can see them as in a different category. I’m dealing with the educated Muslims that know what Christianity teaches and denies it or even worse, outright condemns it. And I can’t state it enough I guess, the Muslims DO NOT worship the same God as Abraham. The God of Abraham tells who He is and his name is Jehovah. No Muslim would be caught saying that name. If they did, to the chopping block for that person. Once again, when a Muslim recites the Nicene Creed in faith, then I will know they worship the same God as I do. Until then, no deal. They deny just about EVERYTHING in the Nicene Creed, which is a cogent, brilliant statement of what it is to be Christian. But thanks for the further explanation. It is appreciated.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
For them to make statement condemning Jesus Christ, and his followers the Christians, they denied the Truth. By denying the Truth, they will be held accountible for their actions when God judge them upon their death.
It is the least I can do. In any Monotheistic faith Jews, Christian, and Muslims, all of them bear good fruit and bad fruits. We can only hope for their conversion.
I’m glad to help you clarify what para 841 states if you connect it with 847.
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zackonattack
Guest
And I pray for Muslims all the time, including the terrorists. I WANT everyone to be saved. And 841 does make more sense when tied to 847. I’ve read that a thousand times, but just didn’t connect it the way I should have. So for that, thanks.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Welcome. I think Fr. Corapi once said, “Truth cannot contradict Truth.”
So para 841 and para 847 when put together opens doors to a whole understanding of God’s plan of salvation.
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zackonattack
Guest
I love Fr. Corapi and watch EWTN all the time. Are you familiar with Scott Hahn’s website salvationhistory.com? A wonder site!
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Yes, I have. I bought many of his books especially his latest book, Reason to Believe. I think it is. It’s an Apologetic book.
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zackonattack
Guest
I’ve gone through his bible studies he has on his site. They are very good. I also love the books by Rogert Sungenis. His books are the most footnoted I’ve run across. And the Catholic Apologetics study bible (CASB) he is writting is the best thing I’ve seen. He has one volume which is Matthew, and he just released the second volume on the Book of Revelation. check it out.
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clmowry
Guest
I think its pretty clear from scripture that God’s plan of salvation “INCLUDES” all men. That does not mean that “all men” obtain salvation.
The Catechism in no way puts every faith on an equal footing. It simply acknowledges that there is “some truth” in other religions and God “can” save others if He sees fit.
I can empathize with the struggles folks have with statements like these. I struggle with them myself quite a bit.
Sometime’s I wish statements were as clear as “this is THE church…join it or go to hell.”
It would clear up any ambiguity, but it wouldn’t be the Truth.
God can save anyone He pleases in any way He pleases.
It seems pretty clear the Elijah managed to get to Heaven without being a formal member of the Catholic Church. I’m sure we could come up with a few other examples as well.
Therefore, it is “possible” that Christ can save those who are not formally part of His Church.
That doesn’t mean that He “has to” or that He “often” does, it just means that we can Hope that those who are not formally reconciled with Christ and His Church “can” obtain salvation.
We can’t get so hung up on specific paragraphs of the CCC. Look at the whole thing.
As and oversimplification the Catechism clearly teaches that Christ, as revealed through His Church is the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth necessary for our salvation.
The Church, does, however, rightly acknowledge that other religions have perceived some elements of the Truth.
This is most true for other Christians.
Clearly Jews have a “special place” in Gods plan of salvation.
The next closest on the block would seem to have to be the muslims in that they at least acknowledge the One “God of Jacob”.
They may have a lot wrong after that, but at least we have that much in common.
I would argue, that despite the many post to the contrary, “The God of Jacob” is the same God that we worship.
Muslims just don’t have as “full” an understanding of the “God of Jacob.” If they did, they’d be Catholic.
Just like an individual Catholic having a wrong perception of some aspect or teaching of Christ would not change Christ into something else, the Muslim’s missunderstanding of the “God of Jacob” does not make Him anything other than the “God of Jacob” whom we also worship.
It is simply a matter of degree. No one understands God completely. Including the Catholic Church. We do, however, have a True and Full understanding of what He has revealed of Himself to Humanity.
It’s a good thing to acknowledge when somebody else gets some of it right too. This does not diminish the truth of Christ and His Church in any way.
Chuck
The Catechism in no way puts every faith on an equal footing. It simply acknowledges that there is “some truth” in other religions and God “can” save others if He sees fit.
I can empathize with the struggles folks have with statements like these. I struggle with them myself quite a bit.
Sometime’s I wish statements were as clear as “this is THE church…join it or go to hell.”
It would clear up any ambiguity, but it wouldn’t be the Truth.
God can save anyone He pleases in any way He pleases.
It seems pretty clear the Elijah managed to get to Heaven without being a formal member of the Catholic Church. I’m sure we could come up with a few other examples as well.
Therefore, it is “possible” that Christ can save those who are not formally part of His Church.
That doesn’t mean that He “has to” or that He “often” does, it just means that we can Hope that those who are not formally reconciled with Christ and His Church “can” obtain salvation.
We can’t get so hung up on specific paragraphs of the CCC. Look at the whole thing.
As and oversimplification the Catechism clearly teaches that Christ, as revealed through His Church is the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth necessary for our salvation.
The Church, does, however, rightly acknowledge that other religions have perceived some elements of the Truth.
This is most true for other Christians.
Clearly Jews have a “special place” in Gods plan of salvation.
The next closest on the block would seem to have to be the muslims in that they at least acknowledge the One “God of Jacob”.
They may have a lot wrong after that, but at least we have that much in common.
I would argue, that despite the many post to the contrary, “The God of Jacob” is the same God that we worship.
Muslims just don’t have as “full” an understanding of the “God of Jacob.” If they did, they’d be Catholic.
Just like an individual Catholic having a wrong perception of some aspect or teaching of Christ would not change Christ into something else, the Muslim’s missunderstanding of the “God of Jacob” does not make Him anything other than the “God of Jacob” whom we also worship.
It is simply a matter of degree. No one understands God completely. Including the Catholic Church. We do, however, have a True and Full understanding of what He has revealed of Himself to Humanity.
It’s a good thing to acknowledge when somebody else gets some of it right too. This does not diminish the truth of Christ and His Church in any way.
Chuck
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zackonattack
Guest
I think its pretty clear from scripture that God’s plan of salvation “INCLUDES” all men. That does not mean that “all men” obtain salvation.
The Catechism in no way puts every faith on an equal footing. It simply acknowledges that there is “some truth” in other religions and God “can” save others if He sees fit.
I can empathize with the struggles folks have with statements like these. I struggle with them myself quite a bit.
Sometime’s I wish statements were as clear as “this is THE church…join it or go to hell.”
It would clear up any ambiguity, but it wouldn’t be the Truth.
You said: Sometime’s I wish statements were as clear as “this is THE church…join it or go to hell.”
Now, brother you are talking. Wouldn’t that be nice. We could go on with examples all day long. Like, look you idiots, 6 days means 6 24 hours days. Why on earth would you think it means something else. The morning of the evening of, duh!!! It would be so nice.
God can save anyone He pleases in any way He pleases.
It seems pretty clear the Elijah managed to get to Heaven without being a formal member of the Catholic Church. I’m sure we could come up with a few other examples as well.
Therefore, it is “possible” that Christ can save those who are not formally part of His Church.
That doesn’t mean that He “has to” or that He “often” does, it just means that we can Hope that those who are not formally reconciled with Christ and His Church “can” obtain salvation.
We can’t get so hung up on specific paragraphs of the CCC. Look at the whole thing.
As and oversimplification the Catechism clearly teaches that Christ, as revealed through His Church is the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth necessary for our salvation.
The Church, does, however, rightly acknowledge that other religions have perceived some elements of the Truth.
This is most true for other Christians.
Clearly Jews have a “special place” in Gods plan of salvation.
The next closest on the block would seem to have to be the muslims in that they at least acknowledge the One “God of Jacob”.
They may have a lot wrong after that, but at least we have that much in common.
I would argue, that despite the many post to the contrary, “The God of Jacob” is the same God that we worship.
Muslims just don’t have as “full” an understanding of the “God of Jacob.” If they did, they’d be Catholic.
Just like an individual Catholic having a wrong perception of some aspect or teaching of Christ would not change Christ into something else, the Muslim’s missunderstanding of the “God of Jacob” does not make Him anything other than the “God of Jacob” whom we also worship.
It is simply a matter of degree. No one understands God completely. Including the Catholic Church. We do, however, have a True and Full understanding of what He has revealed of Himself to Humanity.
It’s a good thing to acknowledge when somebody else gets some of it right too. This does not diminish the truth of Christ and His Church in any way.
Chuck
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zackonattack
Guest
Wow, I just posted something and I guess it went into outer space. so if this repeats, so be it.
You said:
Sometime’s I wish statements were as clear as “this is THE church…join it or go to hell.”
Wouldn’t that be so simple. Like, you idiots (God speaking) days means 24 hours, ya know, the morning of the evening of, so don’t complicate it and make a day mean a million years. But then, that would be too easy, I guess.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Psalm 90:4: For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.
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zackonattack
Guest
Right and AS a thousand years, not IS a thousand years. It’s a simile for sure.Psalm 90:4: For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.
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guanophore
Guest
First of all, understand that, in order to have “heresy”, one must be exposed to the truth, and decide against it. The God of Abraham chose to reveal himself through Jacob, not Esau. He promised to make of Esau a great nation also, and bless him because of his father Abraham, but the promises went to Jacob. The sons of Esau rejected the revelation that was given to the sons of Jacob. They acknowledge the one God. In that sense, they are closer to the truth than Wiccans and Other Pagans that don’t. Using your criteria above, Jews can’t believe in the One God either! Since they reject Christ, the trinity and the sacraments, and think Christians are, well, I don’t know what they think we are, but they don’t accept Christ as the Messiah. Would you say they don’t believe in the One True God?
That is up to the Father to decide who is lost, and who is not. There are many Muslims, some of them here on this board, who have been taught outrageous things about Jesus, such as that He did not die on the cross. Only God knows if they have truly “rejected” Him.
"Scripture seems a little different than the CCC on this, let’s look.
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14 : 6).
Seeing as Muslims refuse to acknowledge Christ as Savior and Lord how can salvation include them???"
Because many come to the Father through Christ not recognizing who He is. Since we cannot know who they are, we cannot assume. He knows those who are His.
Look for example at the experience of Appllos:
Acts 18:24-27
24 Now a Jew named Apol’los, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aq’uila heard him, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately."
He was fervent, and accurate, to the extent of what he knew, but his experience was limited. God chose to reveal to him the truth more accurately.
So many of our Muslims are fervent, and accurate by the small bit of revelation they have (the God of Abraham) but are lacking in knowledge or experience of the full revelation. Since we don’t know which ones are rejecting, and which ones are ignorant, it is incumbent upon us to evangelize them all.
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