Paris Massacre highlights the failure of Muslim integration in Europe [AN]

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I don’t understand. This was a terrorist attack. Since they don’t have the same capabilities as the more advanced countries like the US, they resort to this, even if they die in the process.

Ed

France has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe. Estimated at 4.7 million and growing. This is a culture that clings to its customs, laws (Sharia) dress and religion.

Why do Muslims immigrate to western countries? If for a better life…why not leave the old life behind? Why not embrace the customs, lifestyle, and dress of their “new” country??

I immigrated to America from Hungary when I was 12. I wanted to be an American. I did not want to be Hungarian. I have no animosity towards my “old country” …I just left it all behind.

To promote multiculturalism is to say that our (American) culture is inferior to others. It is not. American culture played an important role in making America the greatest country in the world. To think otherwise is to deny the obvious.

 

[Padres1969]

France has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe. Estimated at 4.7 million and growing. This is a culture that clings to its customs, laws (Sharia) dress and religion.

Why do Muslims immigrate to western countries? If for a better life…why not leave the old life behind? Why not embrace the customs, lifestyle, and dress of their “new” country??

I immigrated to America from Hungary when I was 12. I wanted to be an American. I did not want to be Hungarian. I have no animosity towards my “old country” …I just left it all behind.

To promote multiculturalism is to say that our (American) culture is inferior to others. It is not. American culture played an important role in making America the greatest country in the world. To think otherwise is to deny the obvious.

Problem is you’re ignoring that “America culture” IS a culture of multiculturalism. We’re not a monolithic culture but a constantly evolving amalgam of the world’s cultures thrown into a free an open society and allowed to mix together into something that usually tends to be greater than the ingredients. People bringing their unique POV’s and identities to the table and mixing them with what is already here is something that has always worked to make America greater not something bad.

And from a religious perspective I find it ironic that you’d ask them to throw all of their customs and beliefs away because they’re integrating into a new country. Would you as a devout Catholic moving into say, the US (as you did), throw away all of your old customs when moving here? I mean you didn’t clearly. You didn’t abandon your Catholic lifestyle despite moving into a nation that is primarily protestant when it’s religious at all. And if you’re a good Catholic you’re likely opposing Premarital Sex, Gay Marriage, Abortion, Birth Control, etc… despite all of those being majority accepted and government protected things in the US and accepted parts of US society? Why would you ask something of these people that you’re not willing to do yourself?

Just a little food for thought.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Problem is you’re ignoring that “America culture” IS a culture of multiculturalism. We’re not a monolithic culture but a constantly evolving amalgam of the world’s cultures thrown into a free an open society and allowed to mix together into something that usually tends to be greater than the ingredients. People bringing their unique POV’s and identities to the table and mixing them with what is already here is something that has always worked to make America greater not something bad.

I disagree. There is a unique definitive “American Culture”. Not to sound too corny…but remember “…Truth, Justice and the American Way”
Our Country may be a “melting pot” but what comes out of that pot accepts the “American Way”.

Americans do things differently than other cultures. Some very different, some similar. But we are unique. Yes, people brought their cultures to this country and we absorbed the good and weeded out the bad. I would say that the unique American culture was pretty firmly established by the 1830’s. I can’t think of any noticeable cultural shifts since I moved here.

And from a religious perspective I find it ironic that you’d ask them to throw all of their customs and beliefs away because they’re integrating into a new country. Would you as a devout Catholic moving into say, the US (as you did), throw away all of your old customs when moving here? I mean you didn’t clearly. You didn’t abandon your Catholic lifestyle despite moving into a nation that is primarily protestant when it’s religious at all. And if you’re a good Catholic you’re likely opposing Premarital Sex, Gay Marriage, Abortion, Birth Control, etc… despite all of those being majority accepted and government protected things in the US and accepted parts of US society? Why would you ask something of these people that you’re not willing to do yourself?

Just a little food for thought.

I did leave all my customs and traditions behind. Except my Faith. That was a Very important consideration and why America was the first choice…among other things. If America had a national religion and Catholics were not welcome…I am sure we would have reluctantly made another choice.

From my perspective some “religions” are more of a political ideology. A governed way of life, so to speak. Legitimate immigrants have no business proselytizing this ideology in their new country.

 

[Padres1969]

I disagree. There is a unique definitive “American Culture”. Not to sound too corny…but remember “…Truth, Justice and the American Way”
Our Country may be a “melting pot” but what comes out of that pot accepts the “American Way”.

Americans do things differently than other cultures. Some very different, some similar. But we are unique. Yes, people brought their cultures to this country and we absorbed the good and weeded out the bad. I would say that the unique American culture was pretty firmly established by the 1830’s. I can’t think of any noticeable cultural shifts since I moved here.

I did leave all my customs and traditions behind. Except my Faith. That was a Very important consideration and why America was the first choice…among other things. If America had a national religion and Catholics were not welcome…I am sure we would have reluctantly made another choice.

From my perspective some “religions” are more of a political ideology. A governed way of life, so to speak. Legitimate immigrants have no business proselytizing this ideology in their new country.

And almost all legitimate immigrants don’t bring this kind of ideology, including Muslims. Particularly if they’re given the option to fully integrate into their new society. Think about what you said above about about everything going into the American pot so to speak and coming out American. It’s in large part because American society allows them to still retain part of what they brought and still be fully American just as you retained your faith and it’s particular social beliefs even though contrary to mainstream majority America.

That’s the issue the immigrants run into in France. They’re not given the opportunity to fully integrate. And as a result they’re forced to remain separate and ultimately some turn resentful, even radical. That’s not to say the majority of Muslims in Europe do, nor to say there aren’t Muslims that struggle to integrate in the US. But I strongly feel that if European countries would open themselves up to being more of the mosh pit of culture that the US epitomizes, that they’d have a far better time of it with their immigrant cultures.

 

[KathleenGee]

I tend to agree with others who say the French are a closed society among themselves. When I was studying in Europe many years ago, the French were called by the Latins as the ‘First Lady of Europe’.

I saw some French one time in Lisbon and they were elegantly dressed, but their attitude was also very noticeable as well, and not friendly.

 

[fhansen]

So are we to understand that the French brought this on themselves?

 

[Padres1969]

So are we to understand that the French brought this on themselves?

I don’t think anyone is victim blaming here. But clearly the French could do more to help integrate new citizens into their culture better as this isn’t a new problem, just one that has now escalated frighteningly out of control.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think anyone is victim blaming here. But clearly the French could do more to help integrate new citizens into their culture better as this isn’t a new problem, just one that has now escalated frighteningly out of control.

But the source of the problem? Do you think the terrorist’s attitude is much different towards most other western countries?

 

[zaffiroborant]

But the source of the problem? Do you think the terrorist’s attitude is much different towards most other western countries?

I don’t think the terrorist’s attitude is different towards any other western countries. I also keep in mind that European nations have been experiencing terrorism for decades. The US has been relatively free of these kind of attacks from terrorists over the last 40 years.

The US is not the idyllic melting pot either, there are many angry voices in this country right now that decry the immigrant so I’m a bit uncomfortable with the finger wagging at the French. We have a long history of "We Americans love immigrants, I’m from immigrant stock myself, but these ______ well they are just ______.

 

[JurisPrudens]

You do realize our country wouldn’t exist without Multiculturalism right

If anything I think this shows the opposite. Multiculturalism works, but you have to actually embrace it, not pay it lip service and then go on as before and ignore the multitude of cultures you’ve got in your country.

I’m not American, but it seems You do not understand what “multiculturalism” really means. The U.S. is NOT a multicultural country. In Your country, there is a dominant culture: the culture of WASP businessmen. When You see Afro-Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans and whomever from ethnic minorities in positions of power and authority in the U.S. (lawyers, politicians, etc.), You would never mistake them for actual Africans, Latinos, Chinese etc. Because they learn to talk, behave, act like WASPs. They speak without accent, do not show off their cultural background. It is completely different in European multicultural countries. In the U.K. a turban-wearing and accent-talking Border controls officer is an absolutely usual sight. I think, it is something unimaginable in the U.S.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think the terrorist’s attitude is different towards any other western countries. I also keep in mind that European nations have been experiencing terrorism for decades. The US has been relatively free of these kind of attacks from terrorists over the last 40 years.

The US is not the idyllic melting pot either, there are many angry voices in this country right now that decry the immigrant so I’m a bit uncomfortable with the finger wagging at the French. We have a long history of "We Americans love immigrants, I’m from immigrant stock myself, but these ______ well they are just ______.

OK. I just think it’d be naive to think we won’t be seeing more of this in many places-regardless of how “nice” the host country is.

 

[zaffiroborant]

OK. I just think it’d be naive to think we won’t be seeing more of this in many places-regardless of how “nice” the host country is.

I agree we will be seeing more of this and that it has very little to do with how nice the host country is.

 

[Padres1969]

OK. I just think it’d be naive to think we won’t be seeing more of this in many places-regardless of how “nice” the host country is.

Oh you can almost guarantee we’ll see more of this. But I think the host country being “nice” as you put it can at least help cut down on it coming from domestically bred sources. At least from Islam sources anyway. The US has our own domestic terrorism issue coming from young white males of diverse backgrounds (even if we down play it by calling it “mass shooting” or “school shooting”).

 

[badnewsbarrett]

Idle hands are the devil’s workshop?

Not a bad supposition. I mean Osama Bin Laden was a very well off son of a very rich family that wanted for nothing, but also didn’t really have to work. It became fertile ground for breeding the extremist leader we all came to unfortunately know.

I wasn’t necessarily talking about terrorism, although large numbers of out-of-work young men have never been good for any society. I meant to apply that to the general principle of integration into a society and, setting aside traditional practices for a moment, the idea that all sorts of different people can come together in a common society.

In France, the Muslim population is badly unemployed and underemployed. In the US, the Muslim population (and even more so Muslims from outside the US) are better educated and better employed than the average American. I think that does a lot for the integration process, without necessarily having any effect on one’s religion or cultural practices.

If I’m an immigrant who’s well educated and well employed, then I feel like “my” society is taking care of me. Or however you want to word it- perhaps my society is taking care of whatever things need to be taken care of in order for me to be well off. That makes me want to call it “my” society. But if I’m a chronically unemployed or underemployed immigrant who mostly spends time around other immigrants that are frequently unemployed, if we feel like our people-group is being discriminated against in terms of employment, housing, public benefits and whatever else, if I feel like I’m working hard and doing the right thing in my new home but “this” society is doing things to hold me back- then I would be much more inclined to call it “this” society, seriously think about taking an opportunity to live somewhere different, and presume that “this” society wouldn’t mind too much if it sees me leave. Which, in all honesty, may be true of some people. Just ask Le Pen- and you can take your pick between either the father or the daughter, both of them have high ranking positions somewhere in the right wing of French politics, and it’s quite arguably the most powerful and popular version of xenophobic right wing politics in all of Europe.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

And almost all legitimate immigrants don’t bring this kind of ideology, including Muslims. Particularly if they’re given the option to fully integrate into their new society.

“Almost all” can be an interesting descriptive term.

Let’s say that only 5% of Muslim immigrants in France did, in fact, bring their jihadist ideology with them with ulterior motives. That means there are 230,000 potential trouble makers/terrorists living in the country. Add to that the fact that they are recruiting locals to their cause.

Of course I am not saying that ALL Muslim immigrants in France are jihadists. I am sure most have learned the French language, are employed and enjoy sipping espresso in sidewalk cafes and have even developed an appreciation of French Jazz and cooking.

But…

230,000 is twice the size of the French Army.

Think about what you said above about about everything going into the American pot so to speak and coming out American. It’s in large part because American society allows them to still retain part of what they brought and still be fully American just as you retained your faith and it’s particular social beliefs even though contrary to mainstream majority America.

I have to take a little “technical” issue with this.

America is about 75% Christian with 25% of those identifying as Catholic. I would say that the mainstream majority is still on our side.

That’s the issue the immigrants run into in France. They’re not given the opportunity to fully integrate. And as a result they’re forced to remain separate and ultimately some turn resentful, even radical. That’s not to say the majority of Muslims in Europe do, nor to say there aren’t Muslims that struggle to integrate in the US. But I strongly feel that if European countries would open themselves up to being more of the mosh pit of culture that the US epitomizes, that they’d have a far better time of it with their immigrant cultures.

I know that problem exists in France as well as other European countries. In some cases they are forced into forms of ghettos. But these conditions are known to all and should not be a surprize to someone wanting to immigrate to another country. Reasonable people do not leave poor living conditions, unemployment, or an oppressive government for conditions that would be worse.

 

[KathleenGee]

France is the mother lode of liberalism.

I like the Pope’s wording that we have made an idol of liberty, considering the rampant pornography and violence and bad language.

About the question if the French brought it on themselves…I read that it was President Charles De Gaulle who allowed Muslim immigration in exchange for oil.

We are like the French in some ways.

And I read about the Turkish destruction of Smyrna in 1922 and how Admiral Burke of the USA had our ships there ready to take American citizens out, and made an alliance with Turkey to be silent because he wanted the oil and commerce there for our country.

Comprised thinking.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

France is the mother lode of liberalism.

I like the Pope’s wording that we have made an idol of liberty, considering the rampant pornography and violence and bad language.

About the question if the French brought it on themselves…I read that it was President Charles De Gaulle who allowed Muslim immigration in exchange for oil.

We are like the French in some ways.

And I read about the Turkish destruction of Smyrna in 1922 and how Admiral Burke of the USA had our ships there ready to take American citizens out, and made an alliance with Turkey to be silent because he wanted the oil and commerce there for our country.

Comprised thinking.

France is not responsible for this attack. The innocent people who died are not responsible.
The 3000 Americans who died on 9/11 are not responsible. And the United States is not responsible.

What ever plight was suffered by Muslims does not justify terror, murder and mayhem.

The responsibility for this terror rests squarely on the shoulders of a people who embrace an ideology of violence and have a mindset from the 7th century.

These people must learn that destruction and killing is simply not an acceptable method of solving problems in a civilized world.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I see it as, as long as this type of criminal activity is viewed as a cultural or religious issue, it will not be eradicated. It is organized crime. Criminal activity has always been appealing to some people, while others are caught up in it by circumstances, such as poverty, or by being conned into acting with the criminals. These criminal leaders engage both the con of anyone and the targeting of impoverished youth, for recruitment. Nothing new there. They favor mass murder and publicity.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

These people must learn that destruction and killing is simply not an acceptable method of solving problems in a civilized world.

And the millions we have killed through abortion put us on a “civilized” high horse?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

And the millions we have killed through abortion put us on a “civilized” high horse?

So because abortion is permitted in our country you excuse the activity of bloodthirsty terrorists…