Parish Hopping - is it OK?

[FrDavid96]

there is nothing wrong with going to a parish outside the geographical parish bounds, there are a multitude of reasons to go to another parish, but I don’t think it is good to hop around parish to parish. A parish is a community, a group of people who come together to worship God. The parish isn’t just there for us to go to Mass and Confession and that is it, rather the parish is where people come together bound together as friends and community. I would strongly suggest that you should pick one parish and stick to it, support that parish in what it does, donate to the parish in what ever ways you can afford, etc. To many people leave parishes and go to other places because of a priest or they don’t like the music, people will even follow certain priests. This is not what the Church desires. Again the parish is there so that people can come together and build a community. It’s not just the place where you go to receive the sacraments.

And yet, that’s exactly why parishes are territories, not buildings.

Visiting is fine—no hesitation there.

But Catholics do need to realize that a parish is not something the people “choose.” Ones proper parish is the parish of residence. Really, the only way to “choose” a parish is to move there.

This is exactly like state borders. Parishes are territories.

 

[ProVobis]

But Catholics do need to realize that a parish is not something the people “choose.” Ones proper parish is the parish of residence. Really, the only way to “choose” a parish is to move there.

As there are frequent changes in pastors, Mass times, language, music, employment of laity, etc., there may be a lot of moving within one’s lifetime. Just sayin…

 

[FrDavid96]

As there are frequent changes in pastors, Mass times, language, music, employment of laity, etc., there may be a lot of moving within one’s lifetime. Just sayin…

And that does not change the fact that parishes are territories. Catholics do not simply get to “pick and choose” whatever parish they want—unless of course they choose to change their places of residence.

It’s not me “just sayin’” that. It’s the Church saying that very clearly in the code of canon law.

 

[Elizium23]

Now Father, I understand how Canon Law works and I understand that everything you have been saying about territorial parishes is how it works in an ideal canonical world. But can you perhaps explain the disconnect between this structure and the one actually in place in many American dioceses? That is the system of “parish registration” and the need to be registered and using donation envelopes for a certain amount of time before receiving sacraments. My parish has a strict policy of four months. Staff are not even instructed to pay attention to domicile when determining eligibility, only the length of time someone has been registered and active. My parish is certainly not an island in this technique, just one look at websites in the area shows that it is practically a diocesan-wide policy. So how does this work? Is there some kind of Particular Law which overrides the universal laws here?

 

[FrDavid96]

Now Father, I understand how Canon Law works and I understand that everything you have been saying about territorial parishes is how it works in an ideal canonical world. But can you perhaps explain the disconnect between this structure and the one actually in place in many American dioceses? That is the system of “parish registration” and the need to be registered and using donation envelopes for a certain amount of time before receiving sacraments. My parish has a strict policy of four months. Staff are not even instructed to pay attention to domicile when determining eligibility, only the length of time someone has been registered and active. My parish is certainly not an island in this technique, just one look at websites in the area shows that it is practically a diocesan-wide policy. So how does this work? Is there some kind of Particular Law which overrides the universal laws here?

Canon law defines a parish as a territory. Nothing you’ve posted changes that.

Parish registration does not make one a member of a parish. Lack of registration has no effect on parish membership.

Can. 107 §1. Through both domicile and quasi-domicile, each person acquires his or her pastor and ordinary.

Can you show me the word “registration” in that canon, or any other? Because I can’t find it.

Here are the other relevant canons.

Can. 515 §1. A parish is a certain community of the Christian faithful stably constituted in a particular church, whose pastoral care is entrusted to a pastor (parochus) as its proper pastor (pastor) under the authority of the diocesan bishop.

Can. 518 As a general rule a parish is to be territorial, that is, one which includes all the Christian faithful of a certain territory. When it is expedient, however, personal parishes are to be established determined by reason of the rite, language, or nationality of the Christian faithful of some territory, or even for some other reason.

Can. 519 The pastor (parochus) is the proper pastor (pastor) of the parish entrusted to him, exercising the pastoral care of the community committed to him under the authority of the diocesan bishop in whose ministry of Christ he has been called to share, so that for that same community he carries out the functions of teaching, sanctifying, and governing, also with the cooperation of other presbyters or deacons and with the assistance of lay members of the Christian faithful, according to the norm of law.

 

[TimothyH]

Changing the tilt of this thread just a bit…

One of the vows of a Benedictine monk is stability. I asked the vocation director at the Cistercian monastery to explain what stability meant. He pointed to the surroundings of the monastery and said, “This is where I am going to die.” He went on to explain how stability is the opposite of restlessness. It is not always looking for something better. Stability is being satisfied with what you have even if it is not perfect.

Monsignor Charles Pope blogged about practical application of stability outside of a monastic setting - marriage, buying a home, and ultimately our faith…

***People do this with faith too, often moving from faith to faith, or at least from parish to parish in search of a more perfect experience of church. And while some are actually following a path deeper into and toward the truth, most who church-hop are looking for that illusive community where the sermons are all good, the people friendly, the moral teachings affirm them, and the liturgy perfectly executed according to their liking. It is a kind of “designer church” phenomenon. And yet again, the problem is often as much within as without: Ultimately there is no escape from oneself, and the idea that things would be better someplace else is usually an illusion. ***

Read More…

-Tim-

 

[Elizium23]

I know that parish registration is not found in any canons for the Latin Church. What I am wondering is how so many parishes get to make this their standard policy.

sacredheartbowie.org/webpage.php?id=2

Parish Registration

1. The first Sunday of each month (except May, July and August) is Registration Sunday. Families and individuals who wish to register in the parish may do so following the 10 am Sunday Mass in Carroll Hall below the church.

1. Only those families and individuals who are formally registered, attend Mass weekly, and accept a financial obligation to the parish appropriate to their means will be considered active members in good standing.

1. Families and individuals who reside outside of the parish boundary may register. The parish will accept a spiritual responsibility for those residing outside of its boundary only if such families and individuals attend Mass regularly and accept a financial obligation to the parish appropriate to their means.

This is just a random sample from a Google search, Father. There are hundreds, or thousands, of other parishes out there with similar policies. None of the policies quote or invoke Canon Law. How is it, then, that these policies are enacted? By Particular Law of dioceses? Surely they have approval of their ordinaries.

 

[FrDavid96]

I know that parish registration is not found in any canons for the Latin Church. What I am wondering is how so many parishes get to make this their standard policy.

sacredheartbowie.org/webpage.php?id=2

This is just a random sample from a Google search, Father. There are hundreds, or thousands, of other parishes out there with similar policies. None of the policies quote or invoke Canon Law. How is it, then, that these policies are enacted? By Particular Law of dioceses? Surely they have approval of their ordinaries.

Since the code of canon law defines a parish as a territory, it’s not for me to defend the practice, rather the burden of proof is on one who wishes to disregard it.

I would like you to think about the impact your posts have on someone who does live in a place where the boundaries are followed (and that’s the majority) and who reads your posts, coming away thinking “someone on the internet told me that parish boundaries don’t matter” and then later has some problems as a result of reading your post.

Will you be there to defend that person when the boundaries are being enforced? Do you actually think that your internet posts will carry any weight (any whatsoever) with the 2 pastors involved?

Will you be around to help “pick up the pieces” when someone is genuinely hurting as a result of following your advice (even though indirect)?

I can safely say, without any hesitation whatsoever, that when I post that canon law defines a parish as a territory and when I caution people against disregarding canon law, if anyone should point to me and say “he told me to follow canon law” my conscience will be perfectly clear.

 

[Elizium23]

Father, with all due respect, I said nothing of the sort. I never said “parish boundaries don’t matter”. I never encouraged anyone to disregard Canon Law. I’m merely looking for an explanation of some sort. Obviously it is not forthcoming from you. If your parish and your diocese choose to follow universal Canon Law as it is written, then that is fine. What I am saying here is that that model is largely NOT followed in the United States, at least in the areas I am familiar with. A different model is followed. I would encourage anyone seeking the sacraments to consult their own parish and diocesan policies on these matters.

All I wondered is whether these registration policies have any basis in Particular Law, or if not, whence they come? Individually from thousands of pastors across the country on their own initiative? Encouragement by ordinaries or merely tacit approval? Perhaps no approval at all, perhaps hundreds or thousands of parishes are in for a rude awakening in that they are not following the law at all.

If these parishes are not following the law, then why have no canonical cases been brought against them by people residing within the canonical territorial boundaries but denied sacraments because of these registration policies? I would think that those people would have a terribly good case. (Perhaps cases have been brought and we simply haven’t heard of any of them?) Why, then, do we see no prosecutions, and these policies increase and multiply throughout the region by the year? They must have some kind of sound basis. You say it’s not in Canon Law, and I believe you. Nobody has commented on the possibility of diocesan Particular Law, and that’s my best guess at why things are the way they are.

 

[robwar]

And yet, that’s exactly why parishes are territories, not buildings.

Visiting is fine—no hesitation there.

But Catholics do need to realize that a parish is not something the people “choose.” Ones proper parish is the parish of residence. Really, the only way to “choose” a parish is to move there.

This is exactly like state borders. Parishes are territories.

Fr David,
quick question. When my sons were going to enter school and we decided on a Catholic School, the one we choose and close to the home required the parents to be registered members and imposed a 6 month time period before one got the “in parish rate” which was considerible less than “out of parish” rate. Likewise this wasn’t our geographic parish.
So for 12 years, that was our registered parish even though it wasn’t our territorial parish. Likewise, the current parish we attend again isn’t our territorial parish but offered catechism on a night we could make consisitently due to off shift jobs. Since most parishes do not offer a Catholic school connected up to it, it seems enforcing a strick Cannon Law persecptive isn’t always reasonable. I think with Catholic schools, it seems like the shift is away from parish support to a more broader base support for the school, which it should be and then people could stay in their territorial parishes because a number of parishes support the school.

 

[FrDavid96]

Father, with all due respect, I said nothing of the sort. I never said “parish boundaries don’t matter”. I never encouraged anyone to disregard Canon Law. I’m merely looking for an explanation of some sort. Obviously it is not forthcoming from you. If your parish and your diocese choose to follow universal Canon Law as it is written, then that is fine. What I am saying here is that that model is largely NOT followed in the United States, at least in the areas I am familiar with. A different model is followed. I would encourage anyone seeking the sacraments to consult their own parish and diocesan policies on these matters.

You cannot say that it is “largely not followed in the United States.” You’re making a statement that you cannot substantiate.

All I wondered is whether these registration policies have any basis in Particular Law, or if not, whence they come? Individually from thousands of pastors across the country on their own initiative? Encouragement by ordinaries or merely tacit approval? Perhaps no approval at all, perhaps hundreds or thousands of parishes are in for a rude awakening in that they are not following the law at all.

Particular law must always give way to universal law.

Again, you’re making statements that you cannot substantiate. You talk about “thousands of pastors” but you don’t know that.

If these parishes are not following the law, then why have no canonical cases been brought against them by people residing within the canonical territorial boundaries but denied sacraments because of these registration policies? I would think that those people would have a terribly good case. (Perhaps cases have been brought and we simply haven’t heard of any of them?) Why, then, do we see no prosecutions, and these policies increase and multiply throughout the region by the year? They must have some kind of sound basis. You say it’s not in Canon Law, and I believe you. Nobody has commented on the possibility of diocesan Particular Law, and that’s my best guess at why things are the way they are.

Diocesan particular law cannot contradict canon law.

The bishop can dispense, and there are ways that the bishops can make this sort of thing legitimate if they so choose; and only within certain limits. And the next bishop can choose not to do that.

I realize that you are not actively encouraging people to disregard parish territory, but by your statements that make it look as if “everybody is doing it” and that parish boundaries are being completely ignored in this country based on nothing more than a few anecdotal examples is indirectly encouraging it.

I can point to all kinds of examples of people disregarding laws.

The fact that some people disregard a law does not mean that the law isn’t there, and by no means does it indicate that others should disregard the law.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr David,
quick question. When my sons were going to enter school and we decided on a Catholic School, the one we choose and close to the home required the parents to be registered members and imposed a 6 month time period before one got the “in parish rate” which was considerible less than “out of parish” rate. Likewise this wasn’t our geographic parish.
So for 12 years, that was our registered parish even though it wasn’t our territorial parish. Likewise, the current parish we attend again isn’t our territorial parish but offered catechism on a night we could make consisitently due to off shift jobs. Since most parishes do not offer a Catholic school connected up to it, it seems enforcing a strick Cannon Law persecptive isn’t always reasonable. I think with Catholic schools, it seems like the shift is away from parish support to a more broader base support for the school, which it should be and then people could stay in their territorial parishes because a number of parishes support the school.

Those are 2 different issues.

Should something be done about parents who want to send their children to a parish school that doesn’t match their parish of membership? Of course, I would say yes. What that solution should be isn’t the topic of this thread, and is frankly a very complicated no-easy-answer question.

But that does not change the fact that parishes are territories. It does not change the fact that Catholics are members of a parish based on territory, not based on registration.

 

[Hopey]

Although I understand the law and how a person is regarded in a particular parish due to his residency, how you prudently decide what is best for your family is another situation all together.
I have encountered parishes that wouldn’t hold a funeral Mass for a Catholic in their parish boundaries because they were not registered.
I have seen priests only minister to those who are registered in their parish (not going on hospital calls because they do not appear in the computer).
I have seen some situations that create such a hostile environment that the BEST thing would be for the family to move to another parish for awhile.

I guess what I am saying is the honoring of that law, or how it is used, varies from dioceses to dioceses.

When you go to get advice concerning some problems you may be having with a priest and/or parish, it isn’t unusual to have them suggest to look at another parish.
I also know where I am, I am not considered a member of the parish where I reside in the boundaries NOR would I expect them to help, sacraments, if anything came up. That is not how they operate.

 

[FrDavid96]

Although I understand the law and how a person is regarded in a particular parish due to his residency, how you prudently decide what is best for your family is another situation all together.
I have encountered parishes that wouldn’t hold a funeral Mass for a Catholic in their parish boundaries because they were not registered.
I have seen priests only minister to those who are registered in their parish (not going on hospital calls because they do not appear in the computer).
I have seen some situations that create such a hostile environment that the BEST thing would be for the family to move to another parish for awhile.

I guess what I am saying is the honoring of that law, or how it is used, varies from dioceses to dioceses.

When you go to get advice concerning some problems you may be having with a priest and/or parish, it isn’t unusual to have them suggest to look at another parish.
I also know where I am, I am not considered a member of the parish where I reside in the boundaries NOR would I expect them to help, sacraments, if anything came up. That is not how they operate.

And I know of places in the US where dead people are allowed to vote (at least if they’re registered with a certain party).

Does that mean that if someone posted a question on the internet asking “can I vote on behalf of my dead grandfather?” the answer should be “that’s how we do it here.” ???

 

[Philomeena]

No community has ever caused me as much pain as my parish community. Ever. But I could no sooner leave that community than disown my family. We are human and if we are in community together there is going to be pain and hurt, because of our flawed nature. I feel my call is to stay and work together with the people who have hurt me, my parish community, my pastor, etc. to bring about the kingdom here on earth. If I go someplace else and try to live out my Christian call in another community, it is only a matter of time before that community hurts me or I hurt a member of that community…because we are human and in relationships these things happen.
Also, as humans, we seem to want things OUR way or we hit the highway. That is just not a reasonable approach to parish life. It is prideful and can cause so much hurt and even crises of faith in people who watch their fellow parishioners act this way.

 

[ProVobis]

Percentagewise, though, how many people relocate because of parish? Don’t most move because of climate or employment or retirement?

 

[Phemie]

Although I understand the law and how a person is regarded in a particular parish due to his residency, how you prudently decide what is best for your family is another situation all together.
I have encountered parishes that wouldn’t hold a funeral Mass for a Catholic in their parish boundaries because they were not registered.
I have seen priests only minister to those who are registered in their parish (not going on hospital calls because they do not appear in the computer).
I have seen some situations that create such a hostile environment that the BEST thing would be for the family to move to another parish for awhile.

I guess what I am saying is the honoring of that law, or how it is used, varies from dioceses to dioceses.

When you go to get advice concerning some problems you may be having with a priest and/or parish, it isn’t unusual to have them suggest to look at another parish.
I also know where I am, I am not considered a member of the parish where I reside in the boundaries NOR would I expect them to help, sacraments, if anything came up. That is not how they operate.

I find this so strange, having grown up in a rural parish in a time of annual parochial visits and census updates. Former parishioners are brought home to be buried all the time. In fact, my cousin’s remains are being buried there today, brought back from the other side of the country.

I now live in a parish where we are the only deal in town. There is a Mission parish in an aboriginal village some 40 minutes away, served by its own pastor. All members of that ethnic community are considered part of that parish and all other Catholics around (including those residing on a military base without a Catholic Chaplain) are considered our parishioners.

We know that we may never actually meet some of them unless there is a death in the family or a grave illness or a desire to marry. Then they will knock on our door and our Pastor will minister to them as best he can. Nobody “registers” unless they are looking for envelopes and a tax receipt at the end of the year.

With Baptism it’s different. Many consider this town only a temporary place to stay - temporary ranging from 6 months-20 years - and they ‘go home’ to have their children, and often grandchildren, baptized. I did that when we had our first here and it never occurred to me that I needed anyone`s permission. The priest in my hometown never asked for permission to baptize my first two when I came home on holidays.

Most people don’t have a clue that they are supposed to get their Pastor’s permission. I only stumbled upon that when I was parish secretary and saw an entry to in the Mission’s register to the effect that parents had had their baby baptized at a Shrine without requesting permission. There was a ‘tone’ to the note that made me go in search of information and that’s when I looked it up in Canon Law.

The only time we’ll see them is if the priest ‘back home’ requires them to do baptismal preparation here first.

 

[Hopey]

And I know of places in the US where dead people are allowed to vote (at least if they’re registered with a certain party).

Does that mean that if someone posted a question on the internet asking “can I vote on behalf of my dead grandfather?” the answer should be “that’s how we do it here.” ???

If I were trying to get a discount for a parish school under a dead members name, then it would be similar to me.
The way we operate here, seems very different than other places. The Bishop has allowed this.
I would WELCOME being treated differently! Until then, I deal in ideals (esp w law) and face reality, knowing that God can draw good from a mess!

 

[Hopey]

I find this so strange, having grown up in a rural parish in a time of annual parochial visits and census updates. Former parishioners are brought home to be buried all the time. In fact, my cousin’s remains are being buried there today, brought back from the other side of the country.

I now live in a parish where we are the only deal in town. There is a Mission parish in an aboriginal village some 40 minutes away, served by its own pastor. All members of that ethnic community are considered part of that parish and all other Catholics around (including those residing on a military base without a Catholic Chaplain) are considered our parishioners.

We know that we may never actually meet some of them unless there is a death in the family or a grave illness or a desire to marry. Then they will knock on our door and our Pastor will minister to them as best he can. Nobody “registers” unless they are looking for envelopes and a tax receipt at the end of the year.

With Baptism it’s different. Many consider this town only a temporary place to stay - temporary ranging from 6 months-20 years - and they ‘go home’ to have their children, and often grandchildren, baptized. I did that when we had our first here and it never occurred to me that I needed anyone`s permission. The priest in my hometown never asked for permission to baptize my first two when I came home on holidays.

Most people don’t have a clue that they are supposed to get their Pastor’s permission. I only stumbled upon that when I was parish secretary and saw an entry to in the Mission’s register to the effect that parents had had their baby baptized at a Shrine without requesting permission. There was a ‘tone’ to the note that made me go in search of information and that’s when I looked it up in Canon Law.

The only time we’ll see them is if the priest ‘back home’ requires them to do baptismal preparation here first.

I don’t like the way it is here. But, the Bishop has allowed it to be so.
I’m glad in other parts it is different. Esp for those who are deceased looking for a parish to hold the funeral.
There is a lot out of my hands. And a lot I don’t like.

 

[FrDavid96]

…
Most people don’t have a clue that they are supposed to get their Pastor’s permission. I only stumbled upon that when I was parish secretary and saw an entry to in the Mission’s register to the effect that parents had had their baby baptized at a Shrine without requesting permission. There was a ‘tone’ to the note that made me go in search of information and that’s when I looked it up in Canon Law.

The only time we’ll see them is if the priest ‘back home’ requires them to do baptismal preparation here first.

Was that baptism before 1983? I don’t know what the old code said about permission for a baptism other-than the parish of residence—the 1917 code might have been more strict (or not). It might also have been because it was a shrine as opposed to a parish church. Baptisms are supposed to happen at the parish church in the baptistry, and generally not at a shrine. So the note might have been more about location than territory as such. It also might have been about a visiting cleric baptizing without permission of the local pastor. All kinds of “it might have been…”

Strictly speaking, as long as the pastor is within his own territory he can baptize children of non-parishioners (or delegate that to another cleric). Permission is not actually required but it is often sought.

When I ask for permission from the proper pastor of the parents, I do it for 2 reasons:

1. I need to know that the child will be raised in the faith.
2. I need to know that the parents are not coming to me because their own pastor decided to delay the baptism. In other words, they’re not trying to go behind the pastor’s back.