Parish in transition - losing members

[DihydrogenOxide]

I was not seeking a traditional approach, but I’m trying to keep an open mind. Handbells are nowhere near a rock concert, nor was the contemporary group. Fr. did not respond to my e-mail, so I sent it through regular mail. His response, or lack of one, will influence my decision. There are several more nearby parishes I will be visiting over the next few weeks/months. Visiting is not out of character for me. Mom & I often did this over the summer months to keep from getting stale, and as part of the larger Catholic faith outside the parish. Then we would be “happy to be home” in the fall.

More musical reverence toward God is better anyway. By the way, Vatican has been looking into correcting what can be used in terms of music for the Mass.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000051.htm

God bless you. I hope you choose the church that holds higher reverence for God as more important than entertainment and self-gratification of the people in the church. It’s a prayer to God, not to self.

 

[eiram]

Hello,

This is totally unbelieveable, so many people are complaining about how new priests are taking away “things” that they “love” seeing, hearing, or doing that has NOTHING to do with a Holy Catholic Mass. I don’t know why handbells were ever allowed to be part of the mass in some Catholic churches, the only bells that I have ever known of are the bells the altar boy rings at the consecration of the Holy Eucharist. I can understand the confusion that many younger people feel about the mass because they were never taught about how Holy the mass actually was in the 1950’s and earlier. The Latin mass and everything involved with it is totally new to them. The question is…are they willing to be patient and learn the reasons the priest has his back to the people during mass, why the priests is the only one who can touch the Holy Eucharist (he is the ONLY one who can consecrate the Eucharist), and other things.

Some Catholics think the mass is so BORING because they have been to or heard about all of the “FUN” that Protestants have at their services. How do you up date nailing a human to a cross? That is exactly what happen to our Lord was while he was with us on Earth. There is a reason for each thing that is done during the mass, although it is unfortunate that the mass has changed so much (because of liberal bishops) that the mass is now mostly Protestant.

Eiram

 

[DiZent]

More musical reverence toward God is better anyway. By the way, Vatican has been looking into correcting what can be used in terms of music for the Mass.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000051.htm

God bless you. I hope you choose the church that holds higher reverence for God as more important than entertainment and self-gratification of the people in the church. It’s a prayer to God, not to self.

Though the article did not mention music, I completely agree with the following quote:

"The liturgy cannot and must not be an opportunity for conflict between those who find good only in that which came before us, and those who, on the contrary, almost always find wrong in what came before,"

I totally agree. It is not an either/or situation. I am trying to keep an open mind. As a musician, I was using my time & talents to serve the Lord through the gift He gave me. It might be that I am still called to do this, or it might be that I’m called to do something else, somewhere else. I have 2 liturgies that I must attend at this parish, with or without a letter from Fr. (granddaughters Baptism & grandson’s First Communion).

 

[DiZent]

Hello,

This is totally unbelieveable, so many people are complaining about how new priests are taking away “things” that they “love” seeing, hearing, or doing that has NOTHING to do with a Holy Catholic Mass. I don’t know why handbells were ever allowed to be part of the mass in some Catholic churches, the only bells that I have ever known of are the bells the altar boy rings at the consecration of the Holy Eucharist. I can understand the confusion that many younger people feel about the mass because they were never taught about how Holy the mass actually was in the 1950’s and earlier. The Latin mass and everything involved with it is totally new to them. The question is…are they willing to be patient and learn the reasons the priest has his back to the people during mass, why the priests is the only one who can touch the Holy Eucharist (he is the ONLY one who can consecrate the Eucharist), and other things.

Some Catholics think the mass is so BORING because they have been to or heard about all of the “FUN” that Protestants have at their services. How do you up date nailing a human to a cross? That is exactly what happen to our Lord was while he was with us on Earth. There is a reason for each thing that is done during the mass, although it is unfortunate that the mass has changed so much (because of liberal bishops) that the mass is now mostly Protestant.

Eiram

Please don’t beat me over the head with 1950. I came back to the faith in 1985 and I love the church that I found. Mass was not and is not boring. It is a celebration and a sacrifice. Christ is present in the Word, in the Eucharist, in the Priest and in each other. This is true at my parish or the neighboring one, with or without music. We did have the little bells during the consecration in the 80s when I arrived, but the next pastor did away with them and I still miss them. Handbells are allowed, EMHCs are allowed but overused, and the priest continues to face the people in the OF. I am not ignorant of the EF, but would only attend if no OF were available. Incorporating some of the old back in with the new is welcome. But “too much, too soon” is making the same mistake that was made when the OF was introduced. This parish is where my faith has been fed for 25 years, so considering leaving is not something I take lightly.

 

[PJM]

=DiZent;6383098]After several years of less than stellar leadership and a brief intervention by the auxiliary Bishop, we got a new pastor in August. So far, the result has not been what we had hoped for and the membership is still dropping like flies. The new pastor is implementing changes, many of which are championed in this forum. While some of these changes are welcome, it has been too much, too fast for this laid back suburban waterfront community. And the reality is, there are many parishes in this area within short driving distances. First, the EMHCs were told they were not dressing appropriately, that the men must wear jacket and tie, and the women must not wear slacks. Many EMHCs quit. While we still have the Why Catholic program for adults, it is no longer promoted. There was no Lenten mission this year and no Benediction after Stations of the Cross. The women of the parish are not happy over their reduced roles. The latest incident involved both the music director and the DRE who have both quit, and the organist will most likely quit in June. The music department was considered one of the best features of this parish under the current director. We’ve had a good mix of traditional & contemporary hymns, two choirs, with piano, pipe organ, flute & contemporary group , and a handbell ensemble. So, the choirs are “on their own” and I am on hiatus from playing handbells until we get a new music director, however, the new pastor is not big on instrumental music. He prefers congregational singing, but wants styles the congregation can’t sing. Right now, I am very sad to lose these two good people. For the first time in 25 years, I am considering changing parishes because this one seems to be losing it’s vibrancy. If I stay, I will just be going through the motions and will be much less involved.

The focus of the Mass is supposed to be God centered, including its music. What we like is not relevent. What God demands is.

Sadly gernerations now have been raised to think that they [we] are as important as God.

Eucharist is a three way sacrament:

A Sacrifice Sacrament

A Worship Sacrament

A Communion Sacrament

All of these correctly point to God, not to us.

Sometimes it is necessary to stir things up a bit, to regain that which is the very one and ONLY purpose for our Mass.

***Mark.2: 27 "And he [Jesus speaking] said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; [28] so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.” ***

Eucharist is 'In Him, With Him and Through Him." Amen!

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[DiZent]

The focus of the Mass is supposed to be God centered, including its music. What we like is not relevent. What God demands is.

Sadly gernerations now have been raised to think that they [we] are as important as God.

Eucharist is a three way sacrament:

A Sacrifice Sacrament

A Worship Sacrament

A Communion Sacrament

All of these correctly point to God, not to us.

Sometimes it is necessary to stir things up a bit, to regain that which is the very one and ONLY purpose for our Mass.

***Mark.2: 27 "And he [Jesus speaking] said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; [28] so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.” ***

Eucharist is 'In Him, With Him and Through Him." Amen!

Love and prayers,
Pat

The Mass at my parish was and is God centered including its music. So are several others nearby.

 

[Lujack]

During the 1970’s, the wishbone triple option was the king of college football. All the best teams ran it; you had to at least have the threat of it to even compete for a national title. Defenses had to be designed to stop it. And yet, if a coach implemented the offense poorly, if the pulling guards were sloppy, if he didn’t sell the players on the offense, it would fail. Lots of teams ran the triple option and lost anyway.

Why do I say that?

Even the right thing can be done poorly. I don’t want to comment on a priest I’ve never even seen, but that could be the problem. It might work on here to quote Vatican directives, but that isn’t how a pastor can do it. He has to make people like it, convince them that what he’s doing is the right way to go, and make changes gently. Maybe he even has to add things that he wouldn’t otherwise in order to smooth things over, like asking an unhappy woman to take charge of a particularly important fundraiser. The word pastoral has been abused on here many times, but that is its definition: it isn’t just about doing the right thing, its about doing the right thing well, and to the right people at the right times and in the right way. Its about leadership.

Again, I’ve never even seen this priest: it might be an unfair comment that started the thread, or it might be spot-on, or it might be somewhere in between. But even the right things can be done poorly, and that can cause damage, too.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Though the article did not mention music, I completely agree with the following quote:

I totally agree. It is not an either/or situation. I am trying to keep an open mind. As a musician, I was using my time & talents to serve the Lord through the gift He gave me. It might be that I am still called to do this, or it might be that I’m called to do something else, somewhere else. I have 2 liturgies that I must attend at this parish, with or without a letter from Fr. (granddaughters Baptism & grandson’s First Communion).

I gave you the wrong link. The one I gave you was the shortened version of his address.

Here is the full text with info on music to me changed.

Specifically this quote:

will limit myself to a brief reflection in way of orienting the discussion. One might wonder why the Church by means of its documents, more or less recent, insists in indicating a certain type of music and singing as particularly consonant with the liturgical celebration. Already at the time of the Council of Trent the Church intervened in the cultural conflict developing at that time, reestablishing the norm whereby music conforming to the sacred text was of primary importance, limiting the use of instruments and pointing to a clear distinction between profane and sacred music. Sacred music, moreover, must never be understood as a purely subjective expression. It is anchored to the biblical or traditional texts which are to be sung during the course of the celebration. More recently, Pope Saint Pius X intervened in an analogous way, seeking to remove operatic singing from the liturgy and selecting Gregorian chant and polyphony from the time of the Catholic reformation as the standard for liturgical music, to be distinguished from religious music in general. The second Vatican Council did naught but reaffirm the same standard, so too the more recent magisterial documents.

Why does the Church insist on proposing certain forms as characteristic of sacred and liturgical music which make them distinct from all other forms of music? Why, also, do Gregorian chant and the classical sacred polyphony turn out to be the forms to be imitated, in light of which liturgical and even popular music should continue to be produced today?

The answer to these questions lies precisely in what we have sought to assert with regard to the spirit of the liturgy. It is properly those forms of music, in their holiness, their goodness, and their universality, which translate in notes, melodies and singing the authentic liturgical spirit: by leading to adoration of the mystery celebrated, by favouring an authentic and integral participation, by helping the listener to capture the sacred and thereby the essential primacy of God acting in Christ, and finally by permitting a musical development that is anchored in the life of the Church and the contemplation of its mystery.

 

[DiZent]

I gave you the wrong link. The one I gave you was the shortened version of his address.

Here is the full text with info on music to me changed.

Specifically this quote:

Yes, I have seen this or something similar in the various debates on music here. The only specific suggestions in the text were less instrumentation and more chant. I can see where bringing back some of the old and reducing some of the new fits into this, and that attention be given to whether the lyrics reflect scripture and authentic teaching. While people may not like OCP, as far as I know, they are approved. The contemporary group that played at the 9:00 Mass was nowhere near a rock band, and they played music from the approved GIA hymnals.

Last night, I attended a function at a protestant church, and their praise team band was practicing for Sunday. Full rock band with electric amplifiers, etc. They were very good - lyrics were based on scripture, etc - but not appropriate for Mass due to the type of instrumentation. While I appreciate songs like “Awesome God”, I get it - those lyrics are not for Mass. I can enjoy them on the radio & CD. Actually, I’ve found many Catholic artists that I prefer to the protestant Christian music.

 

[DiZent]

During the 1970’s, the wishbone triple option was the king of college football. All the best teams ran it; you had to at least have the threat of it to even compete for a national title. Defenses had to be designed to stop it. And yet, if a coach implemented the offense poorly, if the pulling guards were sloppy, if he didn’t sell the players on the offense, it would fail. Lots of teams ran the triple option and lost anyway.

Why do I say that?

Even the right thing can be done poorly. I don’t want to comment on a priest I’ve never even seen, but that could be the problem. It might work on here to quote Vatican directives, but that isn’t how a pastor can do it. He has to make people like it, convince them that what he’s doing is the right way to go, and make changes gently. Maybe he even has to add things that he wouldn’t otherwise in order to smooth things over, like asking an unhappy woman to take charge of a particularly important fundraiser. The word pastoral has been abused on here many times, but that is its definition: it isn’t just about doing the right thing, its about doing the right thing well, and to the right people at the right times and in the right way. Its about leadership.

Again, I’ve never even seen this priest: it might be an unfair comment that started the thread, or it might be spot-on, or it might be somewhere in between. But even the right things can be done poorly, and that can cause damage, too.

Thank you Lujack. You have a keen understanding for what has happened here. Doing the right thing was done badly by this pastor, and the last pastor also did many good things badly - so the bleeding continues. I didn’t want to be fish-slapped for using the word pastoral so I avoided it. So far, no acknowledgment from the pastor.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, I have seen this or something similar in the various debates on music here. The only specific suggestions in the text were less instrumentation and more chant. I can see where bringing back some of the old and reducing some of the new fits into this, and that attention be given to whether the lyrics reflect scripture and authentic teaching. While people may not like OCP, as far as I know, they are approved. The contemporary group that played at the 9:00 Mass was nowhere near a rock band, and they played music from the approved GIA hymnals.

Last night, I attended a function at a protestant church, and their praise team band was practicing for Sunday. Full rock band with electric amplifiers, etc. They were very good - lyrics were based on scripture, etc - but not appropriate for Mass due to the type of instrumentation. While I appreciate songs like “Awesome God”, I get it - those lyrics are not for Mass. I can enjoy them on the radio & CD. Actually, I’ve found many Catholic artists that I prefer to the protestant Christian music.

I would not necessarilly got out on a limb to say that OCP has the liturgical Good Housekeeping Seal of approval. Some of their music, along with being aesthetically, liturgically and theologically in appropriate, also violates the norms established by Liturgiam Authenticam because the Mass settings take some liberties with the texts of the Church.

When I pointed this out to OCP, the editor got very defensive about it. I called the USCCB and was told that since their office of worship is pretty much a two-person operation, they do not have the time to thoroughly look at everything that crosses their desk. They assume that the publisher has done that. Evidently, neither OCP nor GIA has. Not even Paluch is immune to this, as quite a few of their Spanish-language Mass settings play fast and loose with the texts.

Now, when did the handbells cease at your parish? Could it be that they are not being used because we are in the Lenten season? You could ask your pastor if you could at least have them for the Gloria on Holy Thursday (the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper) since the rubrics call for the bells to be used at this time and then to have them remain silent until the time when the Gloria is sung during the Easter Vigil.

 

[DiZent]

I would not necessarilly got out on a limb to say that OCP has the liturgical Good Housekeeping Seal of approval. Some of their music, along with being aesthetically, liturgically and theologically in appropriate, also violates the norms established by Liturgiam Authenticam because the Mass settings take some liberties with the texts of the Church.

When I pointed this out to OCP, the editor got very defensive about it. I called the USCCB and was told that since their office of worship is pretty much a two-person operation, they do not have the time to thoroughly look at everything that crosses their desk. They assume that the publisher has done that. Evidently, neither OCP nor GIA has. Not even Paluch is immune to this, as quite a few of their Spanish-language Mass settings play fast and loose with the texts.

If the USCCB is not taking responsibility, then how will inappropriate music ever be dropped from OCP & GIA hymnals? They will continue to include them based on a business model.

Now, when did the handbells cease at your parish? Could it be that they are not being used because we are in the Lenten season? You could ask your pastor if you could at least have them for the Gloria on Holy Thursday (the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper) since the rubrics call for the bells to be used at this time and then to have them remain silent until the time when the Gloria is sung during the Easter Vigil.

The handbells ceased when the music director (we had for 14 years through 3 other pastors) quit last week. In the past, we have played with the choir on a piece called Lenten Proclamation on Ash Wednesday and the first Sunday of Lent, but this piece was not used this year. We usually played once or twice during Lent - (maybe Lataere Sunday - not sure), then we played on Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday and the Easter Vigil, once or twice more during the Easter season, then would break for the summer months.

Today, I’m listening to my favorite Catholic artist on my iPod, and feeling a little better. For now, my parish activities will be limited to prayer for the pastor, for the displaced musicians and for a new music director to be found. I will wait and see where God leads me.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Yes, I have seen this or something similar in the various debates on music here. The only specific suggestions in the text were less instrumentation and more chant. I can see where bringing back some of the old and reducing some of the new fits into this, and that attention be given to whether the lyrics reflect scripture and authentic teaching. While people may not like OCP, as far as I know, they are approved. The contemporary group that played at the 9:00 Mass was nowhere near a rock band, and they played music from the approved GIA hymnals.

Last night, I attended a function at a protestant church, and their praise team band was practicing for Sunday. Full rock band with electric amplifiers, etc. They were very good - lyrics were based on scripture, etc - but not appropriate for Mass due to the type of instrumentation. While I appreciate songs like “Awesome God”, I get it - those lyrics are not for Mass. I can enjoy them on the radio & CD. Actually, I’ve found many Catholic artists that I prefer to the protestant Christian music.

They may be approved, but they are in the process of changing this “approval” of the national bishops.

Protestant services are not those you should compare to our Church. They have a different belief system, and yes, it has no place in the Mass. It has no other place in a catholic church, due to the fact that Jesus is there always. He should be given special reverence, because He, the creator, 2nd person in the Holy Trinity is there Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. It shouldn’t be a rock concert for Jesus. It seems like it is more about entertainment for people in the church rather than reverent adoration and praise of God.

The catholic artists, for the most part don’t have as many watered-down, “fluff” lyrics. They still seem like informal private devotion types of lyrics, though.

 

[crenfro]

Reminds me of what Mother Theresa said -

we are called to be faithful, not successful

… (or something like that)

 

[Melchior_1]

There comes a point where you’ll need to make a decision; is staying there impacting you in a negative way spiritually. It may be that you need to find yourself a Parish that facilitates your spiritual growth and devotion to the Blessed Sacrament, rather than stressing about the changes occurring.

Conversely, it may be that you are called to stay there, perhaps the Lord will work through you during this time. Perhaps you can help ease the transitions and make things smoother. Like some items, there are times that things only become smoother after applying a bit of sandpaper.

You mentioned that you’ve read several threads/posts about music, so you already knew what to expect regarding people’s reactions to handbells. Myself personally, I have no issue with them if used properly and effectively but I’m in the minority on these boards as it pertains to my opinions on music and the Mass so I’ll be saying nothing else on the subject.

If I may offer some concerete suggestions regarding the situation;

• Obviously pray about it, especially in front of the Blessed Sacrament.
• I know it’s Lent and we fast already, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt that in addition to Fridays that perhaps you can pick an additional day and offer that fasting towards the situation.
• And lastly, if you know of anyone who has the Spiritual Gift of Discernment, they would potentially be able to help you with the decision. Seek council from these people and see if they can use their Gift to assist you.

 

[jeanannemarie]

Is the Bishop aware that this new pastor has not “stopped the bleeding”, but instead seems bent on inflicting more wounds on the parish body.

“parishioners must obey.”

No, they won’t. They walk out the door. He can preach to empty seats and empty collection baskets.

Then is it right to just walk out the door? Is it a spirit of disobedience to do so? I have had many in my parish do just that. And take THEIR money too. Yes, it did hurt the parish, but the question is, is it right? Is it meanspirited and disobedient? Or do we all have the right to do as we wish as if we are choosing from a menu? Somehow to me it seems as if we are failing to respect the priest when we take such attitudes. It is hard to stay when things are disagreeable. Perhaps it is just rebelliousness to walk away when things don’t go as we wish. Just questions I am throwing out, food for thought. One has to be honest with oneself. Well, actually, ones does not have to be honest with oneself. It is a matter of free will.

 

[DiZent]

I went to Mass at my home parish. The 5:00 Mass usually only has the cantor & organ, though sometimes we did play the handbells at Sat. evenings. The Saturday congregation sings I figured I wouldn’t miss the choir or the contemporary group as much at a Mass they didn’t usually sing at anyway. My reaction to losing the music director and in turn the handbell choir was emotional and I’ve had a little time to reflect. There is no way I’ll know if I can adapt to the changes unless I’m there in the pews to give it a chance. It was a beautiful liturgy and the patens are back.