Parish in transition - losing members

[Chatter163]

Thus, things must have been really bad for the auxiliary bishop to have intervened before the new pastor arrived.

I am aware of what the OP had said. In a later post, I had responded to your earlier post, to wit:

In fact, from what the OP reported, things had reached the point where the auxiliary bishop had to intervene. What the pastor is trying to do, as I read the post, is to right the ship. Inasmuch as there may have been some collateral damage as a result of these actions, he is trying to act in the best interests of the parish.

My point in the earlier post to you was that the intervention of the auxiliary bishop had occurred PRIOR to the arrival of the current pastor. Hence, the controversy about the hand bells was in no way related to circumstances regarding the current pastor. In other wprds, I see no point in bringing up the bishop’s invention again, as it sounds like the current pastor is being blamed for ills that required episcopal intervention prior to his arrival, in addition to being blamed for the current hand bells controversy.

 

[DiZent]

I am aware of what the OP had said. In a later post, I had responded to your earlier post, to wit:

My point in the earlier post to you was that the intervention of the auxiliary bishop had occurred PRIOR to the arrival of the current pastor. Hence, the controversy about the hand bells was in no way related to circumstances regarding the current pastor. In other wprds, I see no point in bringing up the bishop’s invention again, as it sounds like the current pastor is being blamed for ills that required episcopal intervention prior to his arrival, in addition to being blamed for the current hand bells controversy.

The auxiliary bishop intervened when the prior pastor stepped down and the parish finances were in trouble due to the drastic loss of parishioners. Personally, I didn’t have a problem with the old pastor. He was quirky and often abrasive, but was generally a friend to the music department. I was told he had anger management issues, but he was always kind to me and my mom. Things improved while the bishop was there, but now people are leaving again. Maybe we should have been more accepting of the old pastor’s quirks.

Today, I visited a nearby parish. It is further than I want to drive on a regular basis, but wonderful, alive and uplifting. This is the one that had been described to me as “very well run”. Both the entrance and exit hymns were accompanied by bagpipes in anticipation of St. Patrick’s Day and the contemporary group accompanied the rest. There were a few irregularities, maybe more than at my parish. I have been there before, and the pastor there is well loved by the parishioners, but he is 72, and may not be there much longer.

 

[benedictgal]

The auxiliary bishop intervened when the prior pastor stepped down and the parish finances were in trouble due to the drastic loss of parishioners. Personally, I didn’t have a problem with the old pastor. He was quirky and often abrasive, but was generally a friend to the music department. I was told he had anger management issues, but he was always kind to me and my mom. Things improved while the bishop was there, but now people are leaving again. Maybe we should have been more accepting of the old pastor’s quirks.

Today, I visited a nearby parish. It is further than I want to drive on a regular basis, but wonderful, alive and uplifting. This is the one that had been described to me as “very well run”. Both the entrance and exit hymns were accompanied by bagpipes in anticipation of St. Patrick’s Day and the contemporary group accompanied the rest. There were a few irregularities, maybe more than at my parish. I have been there before, and the pastor there is well loved by the parishioners, but he is 72, and may not be there much longer.

Bagpipes during Lent? The music needs to be subdued during this time. Now, had it been March 17th, there would not be a problem if this is a parish or patronal feast. However, we need to respect the norms and guidelines of the Church concerning Lent.

 

[DiZent]

Bagpipes during Lent? The music needs to be subdued during this time. Now, had it been March 17th, there would not be a problem if this is a parish or patronal feast. However, we need to respect the norms and guidelines of the Church concerning Lent.

I thought about that. The pipes were solemn, but probably not subdued in the sense of quiet or lowered intensity, however, there was no other accompaniment to those two pieces.

 

[benedictgal]

I thought about that. The pipes were solemn, but probably not subdued in the sense of quiet or lowered intensity, however, there was no other accompaniment to those two pieces.

Actually, the bagpipes weren’t completely out of line. My bad because, despite the fact that I wore pink to Mass (complete with the requesite lip shades and blush), I forgot that it was Laetare Sunday. So yes, that was fine.

 

[damooster]

Both the entrance and exit hymns were accompanied by bagpipes in anticipation of St. Patrick’s Day and the contemporary group accompanied the rest. There were a few irregularities, maybe more than at my parish. I have been there before, and the pastor there is well loved by the parishioners, but he is 72, and may not be there much longer.

I mean no disrespect, and I ask this with the utmost sincerity, but is music the only thing you care about? You originally said that you stayed with your current parish through all the changes, but only after the pastor suppressed the use of handbells to be used during Mass did you decide to leave. Then, you go to a new parish and the first thing you want to talk about is bagpipes?

To me, it sounds like you want to be entertained. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that’s the impression I’m getting.

 

[DiZent]

I mean no disrespect, and I ask this with the utmost sincerity, but is music the only thing you care about? You originally said that you stayed with your current parish through all the changes, but only after the pastor suppressed the use of handbells to be used during Mass did you decide to leave. Then, you go to a new parish and the first thing you want to talk about is bagpipes?

To me, it sounds like you want to be entertained. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that’s the impression I’m getting.

No, you are seeing only a small piece of it. I want to participate, and the music ministry was one place where I could. I don’t know if the handbells are specifically not wanted, but we need a director to play. I only have the perspective of the former music director, who indicated that the pastor wants “less instrumentation”. It was painful to lose this. I’ve written a letter to the pastor, but have not received a response. The response or lack of one will have influence on my decision.

I also indicated that the bagpipes were “off topic”. There have been a few times when I chose to go to a quiet Mass, usually due to a schedule conflict, and it has its own beauty. If I attend a daily Mass, there is usually little or no instrumentation, and that is fine. The music is important to me because it is where I have actively participated for 15 years. It is part of the entire prayer of the Mass. I love the hymns, which are in themselves, a form of prayer. I will continue to participate as a congregant and sing, whether at this parish or another.

 

[kage_ar]

I, for one, cannot stand handbells - for me, purgatory would be listening to a handbell choir over and over and over. However, if my pastor decided to have one, I’d not leave over it.

 

[peary]

After several years of less than stellar leadership and a brief intervention by the auxiliary Bishop, we got a new pastor in August. So far, the result has not been what we had hoped for and the membership is still dropping like flies. The new pastor is implementing changes, many of which are championed in this forum. While some of these changes are welcome, it has been too much, too fast for this laid back suburban waterfront community. And the reality is, there are many parishes in this area within short driving distances. First, the EMHCs were told they were not dressing appropriately, that the men must wear jacket and tie, and the women must not wear slacks. Many EMHCs quit. While we still have the Why Catholic program for adults, it is no longer promoted. There was no Lenten mission this year and no Benediction after Stations of the Cross. The women of the parish are not happy over their reduced roles. The latest incident involved both the music director and the DRE who have both quit, and the organist will most likely quit in June. The music department was considered one of the best features of this parish under the current director. We’ve had a good mix of traditional & contemporary hymns, two choirs, with piano, pipe organ, flute & contemporary group , and a handbell ensemble. So, the choirs are “on their own” and I am on hiatus from playing handbells until we get a new music director, however, the new pastor is not big on instrumental music. He prefers congregational singing, but wants styles the congregation can’t sing. Right now, I am very sad to lose these two good people. For the first time in 25 years, I am considering changing parishes because this one seems to be losing it’s vibrancy. If I stay, I will just be going through the motions and will be much less involved.

Does the bishop know about the situation? He needs to be informed.
I always believed in a gradual change…make small incremental changes over years, not all at once. That is one of the main problems that occurred after Vatican II and why so many people and religious left the Church…too much change in too little time! The priest will probably learn a good lesson from this experience. I guarantee you after awhile, and the next parish he is assigned to, he won’t do THIS again.

However, the BIG problem is the parish’s attitude. Jesus is there in the Blessed Sacrament. How many go to Adoration? How many publically pray the Rosary in the parish? The congregation sounds quite protestantized. Maybe a house-cleaning is in order after all.

 

[janet_baker76]

I’ve read every one of these posts, and am still open-mouthed over the fact that eucharistic “ministers” are allowed at all! And handbells? Which of the psalms in the chant are accompanied even by an organ, let alone handbells?

How many members were lost in the past forty years in the promotion of these novelties?

 

[DiZent]

I’ve read every one of these posts, and am still open-mouthed over the fact that eucharistic “ministers” are allowed at all! And handbells? Which of the psalms in the chant are accompanied even by an organ, let alone handbells?

How many members were lost in the past forty years in the promotion of these novelties?

I am in my 50s. I can’t remember EVER having chant - even before 1962, though I was a child so my memory might be incomplete. I think we’re about to be introduced to it, and this will be the “novelty” (definition: new experience) for me. I am open to learning something new, though I personally wouldn’t have sought the experience. There is a particular Catholic musician I like that does some chant and I will try to get some mp3 files so I can listen to them. I don’t know if I can sing this form or not. We’ve had handbells for over 20 years and as others have noted, they are an acceptable form, though maybe not during Lent.

We don’t have any “eucharistic ministers” as this is a misnomer. I don’t know anyone who left because of the use of EMHCs or lack of them. They’re not leaving because of Haugen & Haas hymns or for lack of them. They’re not leaving because of hand gestures or lack of them. They’re not leaving because of some form that was followed or not followed. The’re leaving because their faith is not being fed when these things take on too much importance. The parish down the road that I visited on Sunday, with the very nice but sometimes unconventional pastor, has full pews. The people there love him, and he loves them. Ours are getting emptier by each week.

 

[janet_baker76]

I am in my 50s. I can’t remember EVER having chant - even before 1962, though I was a child so my memory might be incomplete. I think we’re about to be introduced to it, and this will be the “novelty” (definition: new experience) for me. I am open to learning something new, though I personally wouldn’t have sought the experience. There is a particular Catholic musician I like that does some chant and I will try to get some mp3 files so I can listen to them. I don’t know if I can sing this form or not. We’ve had handbells for over 20 years and as others have noted, they are an acceptable form, though maybe not during Lent.

We don’t have any “eucharistic ministers” as this is a misnomer. I don’t know anyone who left because of the use of EMHCs or lack of them. They’re not leaving because of Haugen & Haas hymns or for lack of them. QUOTE]

Traditional churches are full of people who left because of eucharistic ministers, and I’m one of them. And those awful, boring, Haugen and Haas protestant hymns, too. (If you went to a traditional parish with the Latin mass only, and had coffee and donuts after, you’d see what I mean.) And eucharistic minister is not a misnomer–unfortunately. “Extraordinary ministers” is, though, because apparently they’re not extraordinary here. The document that introduced the term ‘extraordinary ministers’ also asked them to resign their commissions. Since the one item is ignored, why not ignore both? The use of them very much debases the mass. They are defiantly used everywhere in the US, even when, as in the church geographically closest to me, there are fewer than five people present for daily mass. I don’t care what they’re wearing.

 

[DiZent]

Traditional churches are full of people who left because of eucharistic ministers, and I’m one of them. And those awful, boring, Haugen and Haas protestant hymns, too. (If you went to a traditional parish with the Latin mass only, and had coffee and donuts after, you’d see what I mean.) And eucharistic minister is not a misnomer–unfortunately. “Extraordinary ministers” is, though, because apparently they’re not extraordinary here. The document that introduced the term ‘extraordinary ministers’ also asked them to resign their commissions. Since the one item is ignored, why not ignore both? The use of them very much debases the mass. They are defiantly used everywhere in the US, even when, as in the church geographically closest to me, there are fewer than five people present for daily mass. I don’t care what they’re wearing.

Comparing the EF and the OF is off topic, but I most definitely prefer the OF. My mom & I went to a TLM a few years ago, and she was very familiar with the Latin in her younger days. We both preferred the vernacular and haven’t been back, and while a good number of people do attend, I wouldn’t say it was all that full, if you compare the numbers to other Masses. While those reasons (EMHCs, contemporary hymns, etc) may have applied to you, this is NOT what is wrong at my parish. I don’t think the EF has been proposed, just adding more Latin to the OF, which is fine, and reintroducing the paten, which is also fine. We had a good mix of contemporary & traditional hymns, and nobody was complaining about the EMHCs. The auxillary Bishop did make some corrections with them, as some had not been properly trained. At my sister’s very liberal OF parish, there are easily over 100 people at daily Mass (she lives in a pretty upscale beach community with lots of SAHMs and retirees).

 

[DiZent]

And eucharistic minister is not a misnomer–unfortunately. “Extraordinary ministers” is, though, because apparently they’re not extraordinary here.

I hear you, that you don’t approve of using them, but EMHCs are allowed, even if over used. So having a few less may not be a bad thing. I wonder if you are applying the secular meaning of “ordinary” here when you apply “extra”. I thought of this because I recently had to explain “Ordinary Time” to someone, and ordinary in this sense does not mean regular or not special, but ordered as in numbered.

From Dictionary .com
*1. of no special quality or interest; commonplace; unexceptional
2.plain or undistinguished: ordinary clothes.
3.somewhat inferior or below average; mediocre. *

Applying “extra” to this definition of “ordinary”, and no, the EMHCs are not “extraordinary” because they are not of any special quality or above average, etc. But when you apply this definition, the “ordinary minister” (priest or deacon) becomes common or unexceptional, so obviously using this definition of ordinary & extraordinary is false.

*Ecclesiastical.
a.an order or form for divine service, esp. that for saying Mass.
b.the service of the Mass exclusive of the canon.
*

Using this definition, the EMHCs are indeed “out of the ordinary” since they are not ordained. The “extra” doesn’t make them special.

 

[benedictgal]

I hear you, that you don’t approve of using them, but EMHCs are allowed, even if over used. So having a few less may not be a bad thing. I wonder if you are applying the secular meaning of “ordinary” here when you apply “extra”. I thought of this because I recently had to explain “Ordinary Time” to someone, and ordinary in this sense does not mean regular or not special, but ordered as in numbered.

From Dictionary .com
*1. of no special quality or interest; commonplace; unexceptional
2.plain or undistinguished: ordinary clothes.
3.somewhat inferior or below average; mediocre. *

Applying “extra” to this definition of “ordinary”, and no, the EMHCs are not “extraordinary” because they are not of any special quality or above average, etc. But when you apply this definition, the “ordinary minister” (priest or deacon) becomes common or unexceptional, so obviously using this definition of ordinary & extraordinary is false.

*Ecclesiastical.
a.an order or form for divine service, esp. that for saying Mass.
b.the service of the Mass exclusive of the canon.
*

Using this definition, the EMHCs are indeed “out of the ordinary” since they are not ordained. The “extra” doesn’t make them special.

The Church uses the term Extrarordinary Minister of Holy Communion to define what the individual layman’s role is. These individuals come into play only if there is a valid need for them. According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[156.] This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not “special minister of Holy Communion” nor “extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” nor “special minister of the Eucharist”, by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.

[157.] If there is usually present a sufficient number of sacred ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion may not be appointed. Indeed, in such circumstances, those who may have already been appointed to this ministry should not exercise it. The practice of those Priests is reprobated who, even though present at the celebration, abstain from distributing Communion and hand this function over to laypersons.258

[158.] Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking, when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged.259 This, however, is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason.

I hope this helps.

 

[CDNowak]

No, you are seeing only a small piece of it.** I want to participate, and the music ministry was one place where I could**. I don’t know if the handbells are specifically not wanted, but we need a director to play. I only have the perspective of the former music director, who indicated that the pastor wants “less instrumentation”. It was painful to lose this. I’ve written a letter to the pastor, but have not received a response. The response or lack of one will have influence on my decision.

I also indicated that the bagpipes were “off topic”. There have been a few times when I chose to go to a quiet Mass, usually due to a schedule conflict, and it has its own beauty. If I attend a daily Mass, there is usually little or no instrumentation, and that is fine. The music is important to me because it is where I have actively participated for 15 years. It is part of the entire prayer of the Mass. I love the hymns, which are in themselves, a form of prayer. I will continue to participate as a congregant and sing, whether at this parish or another.

Active participation in the Mass has nothing to do with busy-ness or activity. We participate in Mass by uniting ourselves to the Victim offered by the priest, bringing out desires, needs, and goods to His feet.

That said, I don’t have enough information to say whether I agree with the priest in question’s methods, although I do like the general tenor of the changes made.

 

[DiZent]

The Church uses the term Extrarordinary Minister of Holy Communion to define what the individual layman’s role is. These individuals come into play only if there is a valid need for them. According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

I hope this helps.

Yes, that was my understanding. They are allowed, but overused. EMHC is the proper term and it appeared that the other poster was renaming them based on an incorrect definition of “ordinary” & “extraordinary” as applied to the Church.

 

[DiZent]

We participate in Mass by uniting ourselves to the Victim offered by the priest, bringing out desires, needs, and goods to His feet.

Which I joyfully did at the parish down the road on Sunday. I’m trying to keep an open mind, and not let my “pride issues” (as my Baptist friend says) keep me from having the same joy at my home parish. As someone said in an earlier post, I may find that I’m called to something other than the music. I am praying about this, talking it out here on this board and with my friends, and working through the loss.

 

[eiram]

Hello DiZent,

From what you have written, it sounds like your new priest is a more traditional one. Back in the 1950’s, everyone’s total focus was “supposed” to be on praying to God in His house. Everyone showed respect to our Lord by speaking softly while in church (even when there was no mass), women and girls wore knee length (or longer) skirts or dresses, they ALL wore veils to cover their heads (while in church), and men and boys wore suits and ties. No one took food to eat while in church and no one even thought of taking anything to drink while in church. There was TOTAL respect for God’s house.

The priest was the ONLY one who touched the Host because he was “trained” for many years on how to handle it and the proper prayers to say. It really upsets me when regular people complain about not being able to do some of the “things” the the priest does. Well, he does it because he was “TRAINED” to do that job…they can’t be properly trained in a few short lessons and feel as if they are equal to a priest.

Please give your new priest a chance, give the changes he has made a chance. The mass ISN’T supposed to be like going to a rock and roll concert, it’s supposed to me a rememberance of our Lord’s sacrifice for our sins. I don’t remember reading in the Bible that there were people rocking out around the cross he was nailed to, or entertaining Him and the Apostles at the last supper.

I wonder if , in time, your church will be filled again…but with traditional Catholics. There are many out there who are looking for churches who have gone back to saying the mass in Latin and having people be more respectful of where they are at. I wish my priest was more like your new one.

Eiram

 

[DiZent]

Hello DiZent,

From what you have written, it sounds like your new priest is a more traditional one. Back in the 1950’s, everyone’s total focus was “supposed” to be on praying to God in His house. Everyone showed respect to our Lord by speaking softly while in church (even when there was no mass), women and girls wore knee length (or longer) skirts or dresses, they ALL wore veils to cover their heads (while in church), and men and boys wore suits and ties. No one took food to eat while in church and no one even thought of taking anything to drink while in church. There was TOTAL respect for God’s house.

The priest was the ONLY one who touched the Host because he was “trained” for many years on how to handle it and the proper prayers to say. It really upsets me when regular people complain about not being able to do some of the “things” the the priest does. Well, he does it because he was “TRAINED” to do that job…they can’t be properly trained in a few short lessons and feel as if they are equal to a priest.

Please give your new priest a chance, give the changes he has made a chance. The mass ISN’T supposed to be like going to a rock and roll concert, it’s supposed to me a rememberance of our Lord’s sacrifice for our sins. I don’t remember reading in the Bible that there were people rocking out around the cross he was nailed to, or entertaining Him and the Apostles at the last supper.

I wonder if , in time, your church will be filled again…but with traditional Catholics. There are many out there who are looking for churches who have gone back to saying the mass in Latin and having people be more respectful of where they are at. I wish my priest was more like your new one.

Eiram

I was not seeking a traditional approach, but I’m trying to keep an open mind. Handbells are nowhere near a rock concert, nor was the contemporary group. Fr. did not respond to my e-mail, so I sent it through regular mail. His response, or lack of one, will influence my decision. There are several more nearby parishes I will be visiting over the next few weeks/months. Visiting is not out of character for me. Mom & I often did this over the summer months to keep from getting stale, and as part of the larger Catholic faith outside the parish. Then we would be “happy to be home” in the fall.