Parish music team management questions

[Guitar]

Yikes! I can’t believe that! I don’t know why couples can’t just save one hour of their wedding day for just the sacred. We’d be in deep doo doo if anything like that was played during a nuptial mass. I’m sorry that your pastor won’t back you guys up in regards to using sacred/liturgical music. Do you think that if your music team did enact written music guidelines and brought it up to the pastor, he’d support you?

In my experience it is because the couples do not accept that the sacred exists … one reason I have retired from weddings unless the people or at least the referring priests are known to me personally. I too am interested to know whether your pastor would back the music team if they drew up guidelines.

VAC - thanks for your detailed post also. I was hoping you might reply. When you are told you can’t insist on practice attendance or that it must be the unstable pianist’s own choice to leave, is that the parish priest saying so or the choir coordinator? Sounds like the choir coordinator runs things past the priest so presumably he is reasonably involved and is responsible for giving her appropriate guidance - is that so?

 

[Sarabande]

In my experience it is because the couples do not accept that the sacred exists … one reason I have retired from weddings unless the people or at least the referring priests are known to me personally.

I agree with you there. I’ve performed for enought weddings to see that myself. It’s still mind-boggling to me, though. The whole state of couples getting married in the Catholic Church can be an entirely new thread.

 

[VAC]

VAC - thanks for your detailed post also. I was hoping you might reply. When you are told you can’t insist on practice attendance or that it must be the unstable pianist’s own choice to leave, is that the parish priest saying so or the choir coordinator? Sounds like the choir coordinator runs things past the priest so presumably he is reasonably involved and is responsible for giving her appropriate guidance - is that so?

It was the director of ministries who told me this when we were ‘between priests’ The choir coordinator and I went to the new priest when we got one about the unstable pianist, and I’m not convinced any action was ever taken.

As for the choir coordinator, most of my interaction with her revolves around our rearranging the shared portable sound equip. instead of leaving everything ‘her way’ we have 3 different choirs with different needs. The issue was brought up to the priests attention, we had a meeting last year after Easter in which nothing was resolved or followed up. On Christmas Eve I was met with a note on the sound board she left saying ‘do not touch’ she sent her husband to check up on us too. I told our priest that this issue should have been resolved in April, and I wasn’t happy about it, but I would proceed and do my best for that mass and for the ministry. The priest did speak to the choir coordinator’s husband, but I don’t think anything came of it.

The director of ministries told me that people will be more respectful of us once we have a building:shrug: . I’ve since come to the conclusion that the priest and director of ministries are just trying to be too politically correct; not offend anyone. No backbones. If the church gets built with these folks on the job, it will only increase my belief in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I try to love and pray for these people, but I realize I can only count on God to keep me in this ministry. To me it is a calling,although I’m not a professional musician, my training consists of private lessons and self study.

Hmm. have I read any posts here about well run music ministries?

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve since come to the conclusion that the priest and director of ministries are just trying to be too politically correct; not offend anyone. No backbones.

I’ve heard this many times from my friends and colleagues who work in music ministry and have experienced this myself. We all walk a fine line as to wanting to have Christian charity when dealing with incidents and people, but we also need to have what you call a backbone.

Although I am bit of a perfectionist especially when it comes to music, I also have different levels of perfection. If a parish cannot afford to have paid musicians or directors, I can’t possibly expect the same kind of perfection. But I can expect a certain level of quality that meets the highest ability of those volunteers. I would also have to look out for the mental and spiritual well-being of a choir and/or the congregation. Action does need to be taken when it is affecting that. I mean, if the organist/pianist, etc can’t support the congregation, try to encourage them to improve. And if they don’t improve or have a bad attitude about it, you have to do something about it, which may mean letting that person go.

But sometimes the pastor or the director don’t want to come off as “mean” or “unfeeling” or drive that particular person away from the Church, so they put up with it. I understand why sometimes action is not taken, but I totally can relate and lament the frustration when it seems like years until action is taken by the appropriate authorities.

To me it is a calling,although I’m not a professional musician, my training consists of private lessons and self study.

Don’t ever feel bad about that. Many of our greatest classical musicians and composers didn’t go to conservatory. It was done through private study. College and conservatory are great, don’t get me wrong. But, unfortunately, today the music world has also bought into the whole “degree” thing like many others. 20 years ago they would have given more equal respect to a consummate musician with private training. Today, they question the abilities of those people even though they may be equal in ability, knowledge and training. One of the reasons that I did some conservatory training after graduating from college with a non-music degree. I’ve studied music since I was four and am still in private training even though I work in music professionally. Yet, I didn’t get a second look until I could put down the music conservatory and vocal programs that I attended. It’s so ridiculous.

Hmm. have I read any posts here about well run music ministries?

There are well-run music ministries, (the place where I currently cantor is run well, although they do have a professional staff directing the volunteers) but none are perfect. I think what works best is focusing on the strengths of each music ministry and working from there to improve it even more. In my experience when you just look at the negative, it makes me just really depressed and hopeless in regards to the state of the music ministry.

 

[Phemie]

Yikes! I can’t believe that! I don’t know why couples can’t just save one hour of their wedding day for just the sacred. We’d be in deep doo doo if anything like that was played during a nuptial mass. I’m sorry that your pastor won’t back you guys up in regards to using sacred/liturgical music. Do you think that if your music team did enact written music guidelines and brought it up to the pastor, he’d support you?

No, he won’t support us on anything that makes him look like a heavy. Just recently we received a document from our Conference of Bishops re children’s liturgy. We met with parents, after running it by him first, and told them that some things had to change to be in line with the document and the directory of Masses with children.

When a few went to him complaining he contradicted what we’d said and so it’s business as usual with the kids and most of their parents out back doing crafts after the opening prayer.

Pretty sad when a mom says to you about her 2 yr old “Well, if this becomes an infrequent true Liturgy of the Word restricted to 4 year olds and up I’ll have to stop coming to Mass because there’s no way I can sit with her in church and keep her quiet.” Do you have any idea how hard I had to bite my tongue to not reply “So because you don’t want to parent your kid you expect the Church to provide you with a craft hour instead of good liturgy?”

 

[Phemie]

I agree with you there. I’ve performed for enought weddings to see that myself. It’s still mind-boggling to me, though. The whole state of couples getting married in the Catholic Church can be an entirely new thread.

FWIW, we’ve done a terrible job catechizing about how music fits in with the liturgy – any liturgy.

Mine was a mixed marriage back in 1975. Liturgy of the Word only. I knew nothing about what was suitable for liturgy and when the musician who played frequently for Catholic weddings presented me with a list I picked what I knew. None of the 3 choices were sacred, and if the aisle had been longer my mother would have fainted from embarrassment as I walked in on my dad’s arm to “First Time Ever I Saw Your Face”, luckily only to v. 1&2.

25 years later I knew just as little about what was appropriate and then I started working for my parish and discovered documents, articles, etc. It was an eye opener.

 

[VAC]

There are well-run music ministries, (the place where I currently cantor is run well, although they do have a professional staff directing the volunteers) but none are perfect. I think what works best is focusing on the strengths of each music ministry and working from there to improve it even more. In my experience when you just look at the negative, it makes me just really depressed and hopeless in regards to the state of the music ministry

.

I’m in my 40’s with 3 kids, a part time job as an RN and I don’t think It’s practical to pursue a degree in music, though I’d love to. I don’t think they’d accept too many of my nursing school credits. More than one of my guitar and voice teachers told me that I’d be learning what they were teaching me in the lessons.
I seriously want to get back into lessons though.

OK, here’s the positive side of it
When I was referring to the negative, it was toward the ‘upper management’. I feel that my little corner of it is doing quite well. I keep in mind the talent and attention span of my group…
I try to keep things simple, repeat songs, pour over the readings and antiphons for each week when selecting songs. I actually have the largest turnout of all the choirs. I am blessed to have the dedicated group I do. We have a mixed group of children and adults. We sang ‘What child is this/ Child of the Poor for Christmas’ for communion with the children singing ‘child of the poor’ and the adults singing ‘what child is this’ and had people in tears. SOOO many compliments. (Why can’t ALL the music sound like that ? from the director of ministries.)
Overall, the success of the music ministry has greatly increased my faith especially in the face of obstacles I’ve faced…

One more story, then I’ll stop the hijack. We had recently learned and cleared with our Priest that the communion song should begin as soon as the priest receives, we’d also hoped to drown out or stop the side conversations. So we’d asked our above mentioned pianist to please play the instrumental of our communion song while the choir received, then once the guitars and singers got the song going, she could go receive. On Christmas Eve, she asked if I wanted her to play ‘Away in a manger’ instead’ until we were all back. I said ‘If you really want to, OK’ Then she started playing Child of the poor as we’d planned.

Last Sunday. I gave her the cue to start 'Child of the Poor, and she shook her head and said she really didn’t want to play it. (we’ve played this song 3 years in a row AND FOR CHRISTMAS) So, I did what I could, I started finger picking the song on the guitar and sent the choir up to receive. When they got back, we started the song, she started to play with the singers, I go up to receive, and she gets up and follows me up to receive
I gave great compliments to the lone guitarist who kept the music going.(young fellow, in 3rd year of college) My co-leader who helps keep the children on track with their parts had a cold and couldn’t sing very well. It wasn’t our best rendition to say the least. But there were no real ‘train wrecks’. Sometimes you just pray and do the best with what you have at the time.

This antic of hers was still MUCH better than her behavior 2 years ago. She’s much more organized and serious. Her earlier antics actually forced me to become a stronger leader.

Once again, you do the best you can with what you have.

 

[VAC]

Fortunately, the children’s mass choir hasn’t been asked to do any funerals or weddings. I wouldn’t know where to start

 

[pnewton]

I am so use to having to play and lead solo. I have gotten spoiled to the ease of practice when I do not have to coordinate with another person. For communion, I receive first, then proceed with music. I have found it is smoother than trying to find a break.

 

[Guitar]

VAC, thank you. Don’t worry, it’s not a hijack, I am after answers to those specific questions I asked but talking around the issues we all face is helping to answer the questions as well.

I’m right with Sarabande on the doing your best with what you’ve got. I know professional church musicians who just do damage and turn people away from excellent church music (in fact I, as an amateur, regularly pick up work for my ensemble courtesy of a well educated and brilliant musician whose manners and attitudes send his customers elsewhere after a service or two). I also know minimally competent volunteers with a thoroughly professional attitude in that they know their limitations and only tackle what they can do creditably, who plug away week after week and build up a “we sing in this parish” kind of culture. You can’t discount technical ability and training (in the bigger churches and cathedrals you cannot do without it) but a dose of the right attitude goes a long way too.

 

[VAC]

I am so use to having to play and lead solo. I have gotten spoiled to the ease of practice when I do not have to coordinate with another person. For communion, I receive first, then proceed with music. I have found it is smoother than trying to find a break.

We used to do it that way It is easier but we have a chatty congregation and were trying to eliminate the side conversations.
Then my ‘second in command’ pulled out the page of the GIRM and went to Father and the director with it and got permission. Seemed like a good idea at the time…

 

[pnewton]

You can’t discount technical ability and training (in the bigger churches and cathedrals you cannot do without it) but a dose of the right attitude goes a long way too.

Absolutely! I always comment on our musical poverty, but I have never been to a parish where I have have seen better congregational singing. It brings out the best of my Baptist side. (where everyone sings)

 

[Sarabande]

You can’t discount technical ability and training (in the bigger churches and cathedrals you cannot do without it) but a dose of the right attitude goes a long way too.

Very true. A good attitude goes a very long way, especially when they put first the reason why they are making this sacred music.

Unfortunately, I think some of the bad attitudes on both the “educated” and “amateur” sides stem from a vicious cycle of different groups of opinions. At one point, mediocrity seemed king and the whole “But it’s not a performance” attitude reigned. So, those on the quality and perfection group got all beat up and hardened. Many became condescending and defensive and unfortunately it affected not only the rude ones who hurt them, but also those in the group whose talent or ability wasn’t that great, but were really trying to do their best and were actually nice about it. And they just continued to hurt and offend each other without really listening to each other and cease being on the defense.

Anyway, that’s what I’ve seen with some of my older colleagues. The younger ones (around my age) are not so much that way. But my generation also grew up during the mediocrity era, which I believe has come a very long way in the last few years. I have to admit that when I first discovered all of this (college), I was embittered and depressed over the state of liturgical music. I wanted everything to magically become perfect immediately and it didn’t seem as if anyone was listening to the younger generation at that point. It just seemed they were trying to force their idea of what my generation was like without really listening.

They were just getting out of “It’s not a performance” and “we prefer to not have trained musicians” attitudes, so I had to experience a little bit of what my older colleagues faced. I can understand why some seem so beaten down, but it does not excuse some of their attitudes. (I don’t want to make it seem that I think that only “professional” musicians act this way. I’ve seen it the other way around as well, but since I spend more time with professionals, I’ve seen it more on that end.)

 

[Guitar]

On Christmas Eve I was met with a note on the sound board she left saying ‘do not touch’ she sent her husband to check up on us too. I told our priest that this issue should have been resolved in April, and I wasn’t happy about it, but I would proceed and do my best for that mass and for the ministry. The priest did speak to the choir coordinator’s husband, but I don’t think anything came of it.?

At risk of hijacking my own thread … oh dear.

In other words, “my” Mass is more important than “yours” so if setting up to suit me means you can’t produce your best, so be it? If she understands PA at all she must have some idea that every group probably needs its own specific set up with a temp system like yours (as opposed to a fixed system where you can have a few pre-defined set ups for each group).

You are a much worthier and kinder woman than I. If it were me, she’d have arrived to find a replacement note on the sound desk saying, “As you know, each group needs its own sound desk set up in order to do the best job they can at each and every Mass. Our group has documented the channel allocations, volume and EQ settings we require so that we can set them up again quickly after other groups have used this shared resource. Go thou and do likewise.” As for the husband approaching, well, if every fader was set to minimum in preparation for me starting my own sound check just as he rolled in, well, his set up wouldn’t be there to check on any more, would it? That said, I do “do PA” myself and have banned meddlers from our PA cupboard before today, but under quite different circumstances. If they were going to say “don’t touch”, he should have been there to run the board for you as well.

 

[Guitar]

I’ve seen it the other way around as well, but since I spend more time with professionals, I’ve seen it more on that end.)

All heard and understood, Sarabande! My weekly parish work is in outer suburban Volunteeria and I regularly employ professionals (both experienced church musicians/singers and freelance professionals with no church experience/religious affilitation but suitable attitudes) for the freelance paying work. We work in a non-denominational church music organisation alongside full-time professional organists and choir directors. My personal interests and a lot of my non-church playing has been in early music and for church we’ve played/sung the whole spectrum except for P&W. I can see and appreciate both sides of all these arguments all at once, which probably means I need counselling of some sort.

OK, I’ll stop chattering now, back to the topic.

 

[VAC]

At risk of hijacking my own thread … oh dear.

In other words, “my” Mass is more important than “yours” so if setting up to suit me means you can’t produce your best, so be it? If she understands PA at all she must have some idea that every group probably needs its own specific set up with a temp system like yours (as opposed to a fixed system where you can have a few pre-defined set ups for each group).

You are a much worthier and kinder woman than I. If it were me, she’d have arrived to find a replacement note on the sound desk saying, “As you know, each group needs its own sound desk set up in order to do the best job they can at each and every Mass. Our group has documented the channel allocations, volume and EQ settings we require so that we can set them up again quickly after other groups have used this shared resource. Go thou and do likewise.” As for the husband approaching, well, if every fader was set to minimum in preparation for me starting my own sound check just as he rolled in, well, his set up wouldn’t be there to check on any more, would it? That said, I do “do PA” myself and have banned meddlers from our PA cupboard before today, but under quite different circumstances. If they were going to say “don’t touch”, he should have been there to run the board for you as well.

Or you have more guts and PA expertise than I do. She did the same thing last Easter as well. Usually my husband is there to run our sound. He has said the same thing,if they don’t want us to touch it, they should be there to do it for me… mine is the earliest mass btw… Here’s the extent of my changes:I don’t touch the sound board I exchange the places of 2 microphones and plug in my guitar. I have kids in a semicircle around a choir mike. At her masses, she puts a choir mike in front of herself to pick up her voice and guitar. Then she puts the men in the front with a choir mike, women in the back with individual mikes. The Spanish choir sets up an individual mike for every singer and does there own thing. I’m don’t feel confident to ‘do the PA myself’ get the group ready, do a fast run through of the response and start the rosary 20 minutes before mass. On the weekends my DH can’t make it, She sends in her DH to my mass, which is helpful for troubleshooting problems( feedback and interference) but people say they can’t hear the children afterward.

Our best solution has been to leave it to the husbands and I try to avoid her otherwise. And I no longer show up to join her at the masses that aren’t my responsibility.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Guitar

My parish is in regional Australia. A problem virtually all parishes around here have is lack of musicians. In some there are none and so the congregation has resorted to playing recorded CD music.

My parish is luckier in that we have about 4 music teams - but a team is just an organist and cantor. My wife and I and a few other men make up one team and we’re the youngest (I’m 40 and my wife 35). The other teams are all 65+ in age. My numbered replies correspond to each bulleted question.

1. We have one 80 year old gentlemen co-ordinating the music and compiling a roster. He does a very good job and is wonderful to work with. It is left up to each team to decide what they wish to play. Once a term all the teams are supposed to meet. Here we raise and discuss any issues regarding the liturgy at Mass, new hymns, direction, etc.
2. No, there is no such formal procedure.
3. Handouts (from the co-ordinator) are usually only sheet music and a list of suggested hymns appropriate to the season. That’s it. My team never follow it for the simple reason that the music is very “old” and is actually a subset of the top twenty list of the co-oridnator.
4. There is no reporting structure. The priest is very supportive but not really involved. He states that he has no musical ability and so leaves the music to the musicians. Any queries are usually directed to the co-ordinator who then deals with it. And truth be told the system does work quite well.
5. This does not apply really to any of the teams as they are just two people - organist and cantor. My team is the only one consisting of 5 people or more. The choice of music is usually up to me.
6. No formal process.
7. No to all your questions. And the problem we have is very poor technical ability of some of our musicians. They are >65yrs and have very limited musical training. But because of the lack of musicians they have to keep on playing or there would be no music (which I wonder if it sometimes would not be better). We have had times we’re the organist got so lost and confused that the hymn just died a brutal death…

Our parish priest has often expressed the desire that musicians have had a “conversion” experience to Christ. And I agree with Him 100%. This leads to a more humble and less egotistical approach. The music also then tends to be more joyous and Spirit filled.

1. No.
2. Discipline is not really an issue as all the musicians are very spiritually mature and beautiful people. The problem is more technical ability.
3. No.
4. Nothing to say here since this situation has not really arisen.
5. I think this is very important. Our parish is prepared to sponsor young musicians for lessons but we do not have any. One young lad is being tutored by his dad who is an excellent musician. We have another excellent guitar player (parishioner)who does tutoring but none of his students have volunteered their talents for the church.

I myself would like to go for voice and music training (I play guitar and piano/organ) but family commitments make this well nigh impossible.

I wish to add that virtually everyone agrees that the face of the music needs to change as it does not cater for <50yrs age group. We have very few young people at Mass (three Masses/weekend). The parish has consequenlty bought a wondeful digital piano and I use it everytime - it makes an enormous difference to the whole atmosphere at Mass and many would love to hear more upbeat and lively music. Problem is that I am the only one who knows how to play the thing as all the other musicians feel intimidated by it and so they stick to the organ.

Finally I believe we are in a music ministry. It has a very powerful influence on the spirit at Mass and God can touch many people at Mass through music which is Spirit led.

Hope this helps and God bless you in your music ministry. I know it is hard work and difficult at times…but never give up.

Eugene