Parish Priest: If Church Does Not Adapt To 21st Century It It Doomed!

[CB_Catholic]

Most of what I see here is an assumption that the priest is a liberal modernist who should be criticized because of a statement he made that has no meaning without context. Nobody has any idea of what he meant by that, even the OP. It’s all an assumption. Now if the OP had gone to the priest and asked for an explanation and found out the priest was promoting dissent or heresy or was against Church teaching, that would be a reason to be upset. But no one knows any such thing.

The Church itself knows it has to adapt to the 21st Century. It acknowledges and uses all the new technology available to get it’s message across. It is acutely aware of issues in the 21st century that need to be addressed: abortion, genocide, sexual issues, poverty, wars, political issues,etc. It didn’t become aware of these issues by burying it’s head in the sand. And it has to communicate and evangelize in ways that are unique to this century. It also, for instance, has to understand scientific and medical progress and it’s implications on society in order to determine what is in line with it’s teaching.

So until one knows the context in which the priest is speaking, it is wrong to pass a judgement on the priest or his intent. Charity demands that we give the priest the benefit of the doubt, unless proven otherwise.

 

[Cinette]

But you’re guessing, you don’t know for sure that this is what he was talking about? Wouldn’t it be just common courtesy to ask him, before posting something that starts accusations of heresy?

*I have had conversations with Fr Marmaduke and I know what he meant. He always makes a little comment before Mass and sometimes his comments are very profound and thought provoking but at times I want to tear my hair out! My husband is a convert and he just give me a nudge. We take Fr with a pinch of salt but I usually let him know what I think. He told someone that I am a radical!!

I told one of our Deacons that I am sure when Fr Marmaduke dies the Bishop will find a replacement. Jesus promised…

While on the subject of the shortage of priests I find it absolutely wonderful the involvement and role of the laity in the Church since Vatican II. I feel strongly that this is part of God’s plan - that the laity should play a missionary role.

Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

Most of what I see here is an assumption that the priest is a liberal modernist who should be criticized because of a statement he made that has no meaning without context. Nobody has any idea of what he meant by that, even the OP. It’s all an assumption. Now if the OP had gone to the priest and asked for an explanation and found out the priest was promoting dissent or heresy or was against Church teaching, that would be a reason to be upset. But no one knows any such thing.

The Church itself knows it has to adapt to the 21st Century. It acknowledges and uses all the new technology available to get it’s message across. It is acutely aware of issues in the 21st century that need to be addressed: abortion, genocide, sexual issues, poverty, wars, political issues,etc. It didn’t become aware of these issues by burying it’s head in the sand. And it has to communicate and evangelize in ways that are unique to this century. It also, for instance, has to understand scientific and medical progress and it’s implications on society in order to determine what is in line with it’s teaching.

So until one knows the context in which the priest is speaking, it is wrong to pass a judgement on the priest or his intent. Charity demands that we give the priest the benefit of the doubt, unless proven otherwise.

*Thank you for your very good comments. I agree with you completely.

Without going into much detail Fr Marmaduke once allowed a man who wondered into the Church to partake of the Eucharist without being Catholic. The man came about a dozen times and then drifted away. We don’t know if the man was even baptised. He once made this comment "After Jesus’ Resurrection and Ascension the Apostles went into oblivion!!! Imagine that! We would not have a Church if that had been the case! My husband sent him an email and received a response 8 months later and it was such a silly response that I don’t remember what it said!! This priest is very beloved and popular among the parishioners. I do not dislike him but he does make me mad at times. I am afraid our parish is a “maintenance” parish. We go to another Parish on Sundays.

Cinette*

 

[choy]

there are thing the Church can change and there are things that can’t. people should learn the difference

obviously simple practices can, small t traditions can. but big T traditions, the Deposit of Faith, Dogmas and Doctrines, all remain unchanged.

 

[Timothy17]

The Churches teaching is uncahngeable, if this priest meant that the church should change its teachings to conform to the error of our days then he has prpbably fallen into heresy.

However if he meant that the church should change its methods to convey the truth, similar to the counter-reformation period while preserving, cherishing and building on the traditions of 2 millenia then he is quite correct.

I agree with this 100%, and if I could just add my opinion (because we here on CAF don’t have nearly enough them! lol j/k):

I think the Church in the West still works on a counter-reformation platform; whereas, I suspect today’s world has more in common with the first four or five centuries of Church history. De-Christianization of the West has its social symptons similar to those of the ancient pagans; namely, a sense of meaningless one on hand or extreme vanity or moral perversion on the other, which things only fuel the culture of death. I’d cite depression, the revitalization of extremely brutal forms of popular entertainments (distractions), abortion and euthenasia as proofs of my position.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

The problem we are having in the 21st century are because of what priests like him did in the 20th century trying to force the Church to adopt to that century.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Was it CS Lewis who said, “Those who keep up with the times end up where all times go?”

The Church is called to be salt for the world. Salt is a preservative; it does not accompany the meat into decay, it HOLDS IT BACK!!! That is its job!!!

“The light of the world,
the salt of the earth,
We scatter the darkness
when Love becomes our way” —WYD 2002 Toronto

ICXC NIKA!

Great post . Good quote from C.S. Lewis, and I love what you say about the salt preserving the meat rather than decaying with it .

OraLabora:

It’s one reason I came back to the Church: the timelessness and constancy of its message of reconciliation to God’s will, against the timelessness and constancy of mankind’s depravity.

That’s a reason why I converted as well.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. All denominations and religions outside the Catholic Church have no constancy. As Jesus said, “anyone who divides from me scatters.” All changes outside, and the doctrines and moral standards are lower and less fair. The times change everything, like the waters of the Flood wiping the world away. Only Noah’s Ark endured. Christ and His Body are eternal.

 

[GIR]

I can agree with that sentiment: There is no instrument i more despise then the guitar and i bet you can guess where that dislike came from…

I also detest the guitar.

 

[Robert_Burns]

*Yes, the old man said that if the Church did not adapt to the 21st Century we are doomed!!!

I prayed “Lord forgive Fr Marmaduke (*) for he knows not what he is saying!”

I know there is a shortage of priests but I believe that it is because most parishes are “maintenance” parishes and not “missionary parishes”. Also good Catholic families product vocations.

I know there is a problem but the problem must be attacked by US!

Would like your views.

Blessings
Cinette * Nom de plume*******

The Catholic Church is made up of each Catholic conforming his will to the will of GOD. Holy Orders and the Magisterium has one role. Defining as cultures and advancements occur - what the Will of GOD is as applied to those externals.

But ultimately - the Magisterium is powerless to protect an individual who decides to purposely defy GOD and in contrast - the Magisterium can never defy GOD’S Will either and be justifed in doing so by him.

So - does “the Church” so defined have to obey the advance of Man or the Will of GOD? IMO - the latter.

Pax

 

[GEddie]

*He didn’t elaborate but I can guess because this has been debated before:

• women priests
• married priests

I think an Order of married priests is OK but women priestesses is not right IMHO.

Blessings
Cinette*

Married priests, as a non–exceptional part of the Roman rite, would have been fine in 1870, and might be fine fifty years from now; but if brought in now, would be interpreted by the world as a surrender to the “sexual revolution.”

On top of all the other recent problems this would be devastating to the Church’s teaching function, particularly in the area of chastity. IMNAAHO of course.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

That which does not change, dies. The Church has changed its form of worship many, many times throughout history. It will change in the very near future, when the New Roman Missle is put in place and required.

I vividly remember the Church as it was when I converted. We had the Tridentine Rite, the Mass was all in Latin (a few words of Greek), except for the readings and the homily. The Priest wore elaborately embroidered vestments, his back was turned to the people, and the vast majority of the people had no real idea of what he was doing…

Yet that Mass was celebrated everywhere in the world (and that fact was a selling point for the church). I personally attended Mass in several European countries, in Japan, in Korea and in Vietnam, and other than the readings and homily, it was exactly the same everywhere I went.

Things changed RADICALLY in the mid-late 1960’s, although they did NOT change as much as the Vatican Council wanted them to (thanks to Pope Paul VI). Had John XXIII lived a few more years, I suspect you would have seen married priests, and a host of other changes.

As to some of the other points raised in this thread.

First of all, there are THOUSANDS OF MARRIED ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

There are a few hundred in the Latin Rite, and the bulk of them are in the Eastern Rites of the Church. So, the issue of whether or not Priests can be married is certainly changeable, all it would take would be for the Pope to say, “Married men can be ordained as priests in the Latin Rite.”

That would not be such a huge thing, as in the time of Christ, and for a number of centuries afterward,. most Priests (and Bishop’s) were married. The Pope merely has to say, “The Latin Rite will adopt the same position on married Priests that our brothers in the Eastern Rites have always enjoyed.”

Then, married men could be ordained as priests, but not as Bishops.

As to women Priests, well there is absolutely nothing in the law that could not be changed to authorize women Priests. Nothing in the Bible says that a woman can not become a Priest. If the Holy Spirit were to provide a revelation, then the Pope could declare that henceforth, women can be ordained. That is up to God, not to mankind to decide.

As far as music in the church goes, keep in mind that the lovely Christmas Carol, “Silent Night” was composed for the Guitar. The Guitar has been used for centuries for choral music, including church music.

I will agree that some of the music that was written in the 70’s was pretty bad, but then again, some of the music written in the 1300’s, 1400’s, etc was also pretty bad.

If your ability to worship at the Mass depends on the music, then your spirituality is pretty weak. I really miss the Gregorian Chant that was common prior to Vatican II, but I can still get just as much out of a Mass without it. I can worship where there is no music, poor music or beautiful music. Sometimes, when the music is REALLY good, it can distract me from the worship, which is NOT a good thing.

 

[Robert_Burns]

First of all, there are THOUSANDS OF MARRIED ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

There are a few hundred in the Latin Rite, and the bulk of them are in the Eastern Rites of the Church. So, the issue of whether or not Priests can be married is certainly changeable, all it would take would be for the pope to say, "Married men can be ordained as priests in the Latin Rite.

That would not be such a huge thing, as in the time of Christ, and for several centuries afterward,. most Priests (and Bishop’s) were married. The Pope merely has to say, “The Latin Rite will adopt the same position on married Priests that our brothers in the Eastern Ritwes have always enjoyed.”

Then, married men could be ordained as priests, but not as Bishops.

As to women Priests, well there is absolutely nothing in the law that could not be changed to authorize women Priests. Nothing in the Bible says that a woman can not become a Priest. If the Holy Spirit were to provide a revelation, then the Pope could declare that henceforth, women can be ordained. That is up to God, not to mankind to decide.

As far as music in the church goes, keep in mind that the lovely Christmas Carol, “Silent Night” was composed for the Guitar. The Guitar has been used for centuries for choral music, including church music.

I will agree that some of the music that was written in the 70’s was pretty bad, but then again, some of the music written in the 1300’s, 1400’s, etc was also pretty bad.

If your ability to worship at the Mass depends on the music, then your spirituality is pretty weak. I really miss the Gregorian Chant that was common prior to Vatican II, but I can still get just as much out of a Mass without it. I can worship where there is no music, poor music or beautiful music. Sometime, when the music is REALLY good, it can distract me from the worship, which is NOT a good thing.

Women cannot be Priests.

Jesus already decided that when he failed to choose a Woman Apostle.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Women cannot be Priests.

Jesus already decided that when he failed to choose a Woman Apostle.

Yes. The Scripture always refers to bishops and presbyters as men. There is no deviation from this. And the apostles were all men, even though Jesus had many important followers who were women, such as Mary Magdalene or Jesus’ Mother.

Besides this, Pope John Paul II has given an infallible teaching on this matter. He, invoking the authority of Peter, declared that,

Here’s an article on the matter: “Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful” (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp

There’s a big difference between changes in discipline and practice and changes in doctrine. The Church can never make a change in doctrine that contradicts past official teaching, though she can make developments on past teaching that don’t contradict the past but build on it.

Changes in discipline and practice are another matter. In these, changes can be made.

And it’s true that priestly celibacy is a Church discipline rather than an infallible decree. But women being excluded from the priesthood is an infallible decree.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

Sounds like “Fr. Marmaduke” needs to have not only a better grasp of history, but, to have more Faith in Church founded by Son of God on Peter.

Now, in reality, the Catholic Church has made a lot of changes in adapting to the 21st Century - Pope Benedict XVI uses a cell phone, the internet and like his predecessors uses modern planes to travel the world. So, how does this compare with using scrolls and horses and sailing ships to get the Message of God’s Salvation for mankind. But, while the HOW of how the message gets has changed a lot - the MESSAGE has remaikned very stable over these 20 centuries.

And, while “Fr. Marmaduke” may have thoughts that a ‘modernization’ of the Church may have promise - the idea of ‘improving’ God’s Church by conforming it to the world has its source in the Father of Lies, himself! Now, from a historic stand point, today’'s world, with same-sex ‘marriage’, abortions, drug abuse, mass murder, destruction of the family unit, slavery and prostitution - while technologically superior to the way things were back in the 1st Century - is really pretty meek in actuality when compared to the various types of blood sport entertainment in the arena, public entertainment in executions and the total degrading of humanity for amusement. it was in this envornment that Christ’s Church entered the world. And, look what happened - the followers of Christ lived a life that demonstrated that living the way God intended us to live as we worship Him - made everyone else sit up and take notice. These people are really happy, have children who live a different life and in the family unit that is valued. In fact everything about these new Christians is totally different from the prevailing culture. These Christians - aided by God’s Holy Spirit - changed the culture to conform to what God wanted.

And, I really think that is the ‘take home’ message for all of those who are demanding conformity to today’s immoraity. There was far worse immorality when the Catholic Church started off … and it did not corrupt the mission that God

Those are my thoughts.

God bless

*Yes, the old man said that if the Church did not adapt to the 21st Century we are doomed!!!

I prayed “Lord forgive Fr Marmaduke (*) for he knows not what he is saying!”

I know there is a shortage of priests but I believe that it is because most parishes are “maintenance” parishes and not “missionary parishes”. Also good Catholic families product vocations.

I know there is a problem but the problem must be attacked by US!

Would like your views.

Blessings
Cinette * Nom de plume*******

 

[Cinette]

Married priests, as a non–exceptional part of the Roman rite, would have been fine in 1870, and might be fine fifty years from now; but if brought in now, would be interpreted by the world as a surrender to the “sexual revolution.”

On top of all the other recent problems this would be devastating to the Church’s teaching function, particularly in the area of chastity. IMNAAHO of course.

ICXC NIKA.

*You make a very good point.

From information I have gathered there have been a number of vocations in certain countries ie Ukraine and Vietnam. The Dominican Order of sisters in the US have had many vocations. This is wonderful.

We go to daily Mass at a Convent Chapel. All the sisters are old with the exception of one who is young (in her 60s)! The Parish Priest is 80 and it is feared that when he dies there will not be a replacement. One of the Deacons, a married man, would love to be ordained a priest…and why not?

I also hear talk of “changing the language” and feel this is dangerous. There has been criticism of the changing of the liturgy but from what I can see the changes are minute.

What troubles me is that if the Parish continues to be a “maintenance” parish there will be little or no vocations. We pray for vocations daily.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

That which does not change, dies. The Church has changed its form of worship many, many times throughout history. It will change in the very near future, when the New Roman Missle is put in place and required.

I vividly remember the Church as it was when I converted. We had the Tridentine Rite, the Mass was all in Latin (a few words of Greek), except for the readings and the homily. The Priest wore elaborately embroidered vestments, his back was turned to the people, and the vast majority of the people had no real idea of what he was doing…

Yet that Mass was celebrated everywhere in the world (and that fact was a selling point for the church). I personally attended Mass in several European countries, in Japan, in Korea and in Vietnam, and other than the readings and homily, it was exactly the same everywhere I went.

Things changed RADICALLY in the mid-late 1960’s, although they did NOT change as much as the Vatican Council wanted them to (thanks to Pope Paul VI). Had John XXIII lived a few more years, I suspect you would have seen married priests, and a host of other changes.

As to some of the other points raised in this thread.

First of all, there are THOUSANDS OF MARRIED ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

There are a few hundred in the Latin Rite, and the bulk of them are in the Eastern Rites of the Church. So, the issue of whether or not Priests can be married is certainly changeable, all it would take would be for the Pope to say, “Married men can be ordained as priests in the Latin Rite.”

That would not be such a huge thing, as in the time of Christ, and for a number of centuries afterward,. most Priests (and Bishop’s) were married. The Pope merely has to say, “The Latin Rite will adopt the same position on married Priests that our brothers in the Eastern Rites have always enjoyed.”

Then, married men could be ordained as priests, but not as Bishops.

As to women Priests, well there is absolutely nothing in the law that could not be changed to authorize women Priests. Nothing in the Bible says that a woman can not become a Priest. If the Holy Spirit were to provide a revelation, then the Pope could declare that henceforth, women can be ordained. That is up to God, not to mankind to decide.

As far as music in the church goes, keep in mind that the lovely Christmas Carol, “Silent Night” was composed for the Guitar. The Guitar has been used for centuries for choral music, including church music.

I will agree that some of the music that was written in the 70’s was pretty bad, but then again, some of the music written in the 1300’s, 1400’s, etc was also pretty bad.

If your ability to worship at the Mass depends on the music, then your spirituality is pretty weak. I really miss the Gregorian Chant that was common prior to Vatican II, but I can still get just as much out of a Mass without it. I can worship where there is no music, poor music or beautiful music. Sometimes, when the music is REALLY good, it can distract me from the worship, which is NOT a good thing.

*Changes in the responses at Mass (Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof… and the Creed) were implemented here about a year ago - are more changes envisaged? I hope this time there will be no further changes…

Cinette*

 

[kimmielittle]

Yes. The Scripture always refers to bishops and presbyters as men. There is no deviation from this. And the apostles were all men, even though Jesus had many important followers who were women, such as Mary Magdalene or Jesus’ Mother.

Besides this, Pope John Paul II has given an infallible teaching on this matter. He, invoking the authority of Peter, declared that,

Here’s an article on the matter: “Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful” (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp

There’s a big difference between changes in discipline and practice and changes in doctrine. The Church can never make a change in doctrine that contradicts past official teaching, though she can make developments on past teaching that don’t contradict the past but build on it.

Changes in discipline and practice are another matter. In these, changes can be made.

And it’s true that priestly celibacy is a Church discipline rather than an infallible decree. But women being excluded from the priesthood is an infallible decree.

 

[Robert_Burns]

*You make a very good point.

From information I have gathered there have been a number of vocations in certain countries ie Ukraine and Vietnam. The Dominican Order of sisters in the US have had many vocations. This is wonderful.

We go to daily Mass at a Convent Chapel. All the sisters are old with the exception of one who is young (in her 60s)! The Parish Priest is 80 and it is feared that when he dies there will not be a replacement. One of the Deacons, a married man, would love to be ordained a priest…and why not?

I also hear talk of “changing the language” and feel this is dangerous. There has been criticism of the changing of the liturgy but from what I can see the changes are minute.

What troubles me is that if the Parish continues to be a “maintenance” parish there will be little or no vocations. We pray for vocations daily.

Blessings
Cinette

Well there is nothing Intrinsicly evil about Married Clergy but keep one thing in mind. The Church actively seeks dedicated Priests who are interested in the Priesthood as a Vocation. A Married Man is divided. He has GOD in his life - but GOD is not the entire focus of his life.

A Priest who is celibate for GOD can more readily advance in the Spiritual life mastering his own senses and subjugating the things of the world in deference to Spirituality. Read the Scriptures. Our Lord and St Paul speak of these very things. Even in the Early Church where Priests were allowed to marry - many of them once ordained were voluntarily celibate and in addition there were many instances where Laity married but were likewise celibate.

This is the reason the Western Church has adopted celibacy and various other vows like Obedience and Poverty etc. To subjugate the cares of the World and advance in the Spiritual life. Unfortunately today - society has over saturated all of us with the “importance” of human sexuality. If you were to honestly investigate this subject - just how important is it really? Does it serve GOD or is it merely more than its made out to be. IMO , its over emphasized and a Priest would not be a better Priest if he were allowed to marry - he would be divided. Most Priests today barely have enough time to do the things they need to do as it is - is it reasonable to think that Adding a Wife and possibly Children into the equasion would make for a stronger Church? “Sorry I cannot give you the Last rites - little Johnny has a soccer game and its for the Championship”

Its a bad idea.

 

[GEddie]

*You make a very good point.

From information I have gathered there have been a number of vocations in certain countries ie Ukraine and Vietnam. The Dominican Order of sisters in the US have had many vocations. This is wonderful.

We go to daily Mass at a Convent Chapel. All the sisters are old with the exception of one who is young (in her 60s)! The Parish Priest is 80 and it is feared that when he dies there will not be a replacement. One of the Deacons, a married man, would love to be ordained a priest…and why not? …if the Parish continues to be a “maintenance” parish there will be little or no vocations. We pray for vocations daily.

Blessings
Cinette

By all means, it doth behooveth all of us average sinners to pray for vocations in the Church. But we should not think the current “barren patch” is necessarily a tragedy or crisis.

In the mid 1900s and probably for generations before, many youth sought a life in the Church because it was, a priori, a better life; could get them off the farm, or out of the factory, etc. Not that these youths did not love God, but their choice was simplified by the relative lack of choices their life offered. (An Irish priest in his 80s told me that in his youth the choices were “the monastery, the military, or emigration to England.”) Today, the young have a plethora of choices in their life; if fewer of them choose the sacrificial life of the Church, that is only natural, and may lead in time to a purifying of mind among those who do choose it. If a lack of clergy leads to consolidation of Church resources, that may become part of collective penance.

Your married deacon is commendable for wishing to be a priest. But given that GOD is in command of His Church and its regulations, clearly at this time, the man is not called to be one.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Cinette]

By all means, it doth behooveth all of us average sinners to pray for vocations in the Church. But we should not think the current “barren patch” is necessarily a tragedy or crisis.

In the mid 1900s and probably for generations before, many youth sought a life in the Church because it was, a priori, a better life; could get them off the farm, or out of the factory, etc. Not that these youths did not love God, but their choice was simplified by the relative lack of choices their life offered. (An Irish priest in his 80s told me that in his youth the choices were “the monastery, the military, or emigration to England.”) Today, the young have a plethora of choices in their life; if fewer of them choose the sacrificial life of the Church, that is only natural, and may lead in time to a purifying of mind among those who do choose it. If a lack of clergy leads to consolidation of Church resources, that may become part of collective penance.

Your married deacon is commendable for wishing to be a priest. But given that GOD is in command of His Church and its regulations, clearly at this time, the man is not called to be one.

ICXC NIKA.

*Your observations are valid. It is also important to note that today there is a greater participation in the life of the Church by the laity - teaching, talks/retreats, radio/TV apologetics, CAF, Youth groups, etc etc - lots of great stuff.

Cinette *