Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Spiller]

Nonsense.

So are those of us who desire the TLM.

Oh yeah? Then shift your envelopes from your current parish to this new chaplaincy. Done deal.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

It sounds like this is not a case of a parish offering varying forms of the Mass, but a completely separate community that doesn’t belong to a specific parish. That being the case, it shouldn’t be up to a particular parish to have to subsidize people from all over the area to the detriment of their own parishioners. In turn, the collection taken up at the Masses offered through the Latin Mass Chaplaincy will benefit its members and not the individual parishes where the Mass is offered. It sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Spiller]

A important distinction from the discussion at the link:

What if the Latino community suddenly started receiving a bill for $72,000 per year, after the Spanish mass had already been in existence for many years?

That’s just silly. The “Latino community” is already taking weekly collections which go to their parish.

 

[universalindult]

Why is this a special case? Why should others subsidize the Latin Mass?

Because the Pope said Catholics have a right to this mass, just as you have a right to the vernacular. They are two forms of the same right. How can anyone justify charging for one and not the other when both use the same buildings, priests, infrastructure, etc.?

You are attempting to make TLM attending Catholics into second class Catholics who must pay for access to the sacraments. Sorry, we’ve been in the ghetto too long already to accept this blatant attempt to subvert Summorum Pontificum.

 

[Spiller]

It sounds like this is not a case of a parish offering varying forms of the Mass, but a completely separate community that doesn’t belong to a specific parish. That being the case, it shouldn’t be up to a particular parish to have to subsidize people from all over the area to the detriment of their own parishioners. In turn, the collection taken up at the Masses offered through the Latin Mass Chaplaincy will benefit its members and not the individual parishes where the Mass is offered. It sounds reasonable to me.

Precisely…

Actually it sounds like a good plan. Rather than simply a weekly Mass, it sounds like this chaplain will be around to minister to those who prefer the Tridentine Mass.

 

[Kielbasi]

If the folks in Maine don’t put a stop to this, every TLM community in the world is going to be paying exorbitant fees for the mass and the sacraments according to the ancient rite.

In Pittsburgh, there is a Latin Mass community as well. They share a church building with a Northside parish.

I don’t know what the financial arrangements are for the high costs to maintain and heat the building are, but I’m sure that they share the costs. $72,000 for an entire year including the priest’s upkeep and salary just doesn’t sound that exhorbinant.

For better or worse, the diocese have decided to set up separate organizations, “communities” , for Latin mass which are like personal parishes. I suppose that the diocese could have decided to just have the Latin masses celebrated by the diocese and keep the collection money themselves and pay the priest and the host parish themselves.

But that’s not the way they decided to do it, instead they want the Latin mass folks to be a separate self-supporting community.

 

[Brenda_V]

Wait a minute. The Bishop has given a Chaplaincy to this group of people - sounds like they are going to be their own entity so, when our forefathers came here the first thing they wanted to do was start a Parish! Did they complain that they had to “pay” for their building and the wherewithal to heat it and for the cost of the supplies for Mass? NO, they petitioned and got one, they got a Priest and they paid for the building and supported their Priest so, the TLM community is offended that they are being asked to do the same?

If this goes over well they will probably be given permission to build their own building and have their own Parish, not just a Chaplaincy which is dependent on other Parishes for a place to worship.

Let me give you a modern day example of a NO (OF actually now) Mass Parish getting started. There is a Mother Church that was growing so fast that the people had to petition the Archbishop to be able to expand into another Parish - low and behold, they did but in order to have enough money they started having Mass in a Public school gym - they paid the school rent for us of the facilities from the money’s they collected from those who attended, then they got a donation of land and got permission to put up a portable building - they did that too - all the while still being part of the Mother Church. They paid for the building and eventually got Parish status.

The whole time this was going on the Mother church continued to grow so she asked to have another Mission opened, this mission is soon to be it’s own Church but in the meantime they started having Mass in another Public School where they paid rent for the use of the facility but the Mother Church through the Grace of God and His miracles were able to purchase a public school building that didn’t meet the “disabilities act for public places” so we finally got a Catholic School, we now have Mass in the Catholic School (to whom we still pay rent for the use of the facilities albeit much less and we now have a Chapel to hear Mass in). Did any of the people in these missions expect not to have to pay something for their facilities? NO, we were grateful for having a place to worship and the knowledge that we would be our own Parish someday.

Brenda V.

 

[universalindult]

They are to be charged $72,000 per year, with an initial $18,000 down payment being due on or before July 1st, only a little over 2 1/2 months from the time this is being written.

Imagine telling the Latino community,

“Sure, you can have your Spanish mass, but only if you come up with an initial $18,000 bribe first, due two months from today.”

 

[Spiller]

Because the Pope said Catholics have a right to this mass, just as you have a right to the vernacular. They are two forms of the same right. How can anyone justify charging for one and not the other when both use the same buildings, priests, infrastructure, etc.?

You are attempting to make TLM attending Catholics into second class Catholics who must pay for access to the sacraments. Sorry, we’ve been in the ghetto too long already to accept this blatant attempt to subvert Summorum Pontificum.

You’re simply not grasping the financials.

"The budget for the first year is $72,000.00 and includes **salary, room & board, health insurance and pension, travel expenses, **church rental, office expenses, and other ministry (sic) expenses.

Everything emboldened above are hard costs associated with this chaplaincy. Who is supposed to pay for them if not those making use of the chaplaincy?

The “church rental” is a hard cost too, but because the cost is sunk and because there is little opportunity cost associated with it, I said I would forgive it for the first year – they would effectively be subsidized by the parish members who pays the costs associated with the parish. After that, it would only be fair that they pay their share.

I think the best part about this – and also the most difficult for some is that they want $18K to get started. That is however a WONDERFUL way to gauge REAL interest.

If people are truly willing to support the Tridentine Mass, this should be a non-issue.

 

[Spiller]

Wait a minute. The Bishop has given a Chaplaincy to this group of people - sounds like they are going to be their own entity so, when our forefathers came here the first thing they wanted to do was start a Parish! Did they complain that they had to “pay” for their building and the wherewithal to heat it and for the cost of the supplies for Mass? NO, they petitioned and got one, they got a Priest and they paid for the building and supported their Priest so, the TLM community is offended that they are being asked to do the same?

If this goes over well they will probably be given permission to build their own building and have their own Parish, not just a Chaplaincy which is dependent on other Parishes for a place to worship.

Let me give you a modern day example of a NO (OF actually now) Mass Parish getting started. There is a Mother Church that was growing so fast that the people had to petition the Archbishop to be able to expand into another Parish - low and behold, they did but in order to have enough money they started having Mass in a Public school gym - they paid the school rent for us of the facilities from the money’s they collected from those who attended, then they got a donation of land and got permission to put up a portable building - they did that too - all the while still being part of the Mother Church. They paid for the building and eventually got Parish status.

The whole time this was going on the Mother church continued to grow so she asked to have another Mission opened, this mission is soon to be it’s own Church but in the meantime they started having Mass in another Public School where they paid rent for the use of the facility but the Mother Church through the Grace of God and His miracles were able to purchase a public school building that didn’t meet the “disabilities act for public places” so we finally got a Catholic School, we now have Mass in the Catholic School (to whom we still pay rent for the use of the facilities albeit much less and we now have a Chapel to hear Mass in). Did any of the people in these missions expect not to have to pay something for their facilities? NO, we were grateful for having a place to worship and the knowledge that we would be our own Parish someday.

Brenda V.

Well said.

Simply put, it costs money.

 

[Kielbasi]

Imagine telling the Latino community,“Sure, you can have your Spanish mass, but only if you come up with an initial $18,000 bribe first, due two months from today.”

I’m sure they didn’t use the word bribe, but I’m sure they came up with an appropriate financial cost-sharing arrangement which changes periodically depending on the costs involved.

I know that when the Polish and other immigrants came to the US, they paid to transport priests from the old country and used other parish’s buildings until they could build their own. The amounts have changed, but the concept I don’t think has.

 

[universalindult]

You’re simply not grasping the financials.

On the contrary, I grasp this completely. It can only be grasped in this context:

This TLM community **has been in place for years, and has been refused **an (ostensibly free of charge) FSSP priest when they indicated they could provide one willing and able.

 

[planter654]

Has Fr. Z gotten a hold of this yet? He’s sure to incensed! (no pun intended).

In all seriously, this is disheartening and disgusting. Another example of traditional catholics being treated as second-class Christians. Sometimes I wish that a certain group of Bishops would be systematically struck but lightning, but then common sense and charity kick in. I then realize that this is clearly a cross the Lord has given to some of his most devout followers to see if their charity is as deep as it ought to be, and ensure that we (traditionalists) do not follow the example of the SSPX and give up on charity and obedience regarding the magisterium.

That said, I hope that this Diocese recieves thousands of charitable letters begging that these unjust actions be recanted.

The rest of us can pray for these poor souls who are only asking for Mass and recieve a huge bill for it.

Sad. Sad

God Bless

 

[Spiller]

On the contrary, I grasp this completely. It can only be grasped in this context:

Who is supposed to pay the $72K/year?

 

[planter654]

It really saddens me to hear such talk, especially when in some cases like the Institutum Christi Regis, they actually pay a lot of money up front (albeit with a little help from the bishop) to restore those churches which have been closed for lack of NO attendance.

Also, who subsidized the razings of the high altars, the communion rails, the confessionals, and the statues that symbolized all things traditional in the Church? What about the priestly scandals within the Church in the last 40 years? Or what about Vatican II itself? Who bought the Church property for the Church? It was mostly my and your grandparents who subsidized so that all could enjoy a new vernacular Mass.

My point is that it takes all Catholics to work together to enjoy the treasures and pleasures that the Catholic Church has to offer. If you don’t like them, then by all means seek comfort elsewhere. It’s not a “we vs them, educated vs uneducated, renters vs landlords, poor vs rich” Church that the Church needs to portray.

Our Church was built and paid for by the community of the faithful.

Right now our bell is sitting on the front lawn of the Church because it was never maintain over 100 years. It will cost the community 3 million dollars to have it repaired and placed back on top. Fundraisers donations within the community. The land which our cChurch was built on was donated, plus labour, materials etc. We have given money to the church weekly through out generations.

Why was not some of that money not also used for repairs and maintance through out the generations? We have built a new beautiful large home for our priest. 5 yrs ago we had also to raise over 500,000 for the interior? Then they can come and close Church which many in our area has been closed and take the money from the sale? That sale money should have been handed back over to the community–for what ever the great need could be!

I find this very sad.

God Bless

 

[Kielbasi]

If there are just 300 members, $72,000 is less than $5 per week per member.

Not a fantastic amount , particularly presuming that the members will be no longer supporting their former parishes.

 

[planter654]

Who is supposed to pay the $72K/year?

I am, I am!
God Bless

 

[Spiller]

If there are just 300 members, $72,000 is less than $5 per week per member.

Not a fantastic amount , particularly presuming that the members will be no longer supporting their former parishes.

Spot-on. And if they gave more than $5.00/head or if they have larger numbers, I am sure there are provisions for banking the money for the future – maybe even their own parish one day.

I think the fear from some is that there might be little demand for the Tridentine Mass and/or those attending will give very little and the chaplaincy will not be maintained due to lack of funds…

 

[holdencaulfield]

The Bishop of this diocese should be excommunicated. That’s the only way to handle people like this. We can’t just slap them on the wrist, and say don’t do that again. We must allow them to no do it again, aka excommunication.

 

[Kielbasi]

The Bishop of this diocese should be excommunicated. That’s the only way to handle people like this. We can’t just slap them on the wrist, and say don’t do that again. We must allow them to no do it again, aka excommunication.

Excommunicated for what? All that he did was to make a calculation of the financial costs of establishing and maintaining a Latin mass community.