Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[LouisH]

Are the people who want the traditional Mass want only that? If they eventually get a parish of their own, then they can have the traditional Mass plus all the other sacraments celebrated according to the traditional rites. Then there are the sacramentals celebrated the traditional way (not to mention restoring sacramentals which have been dropped since Vatican II). Then too traditional devotions could be revived if the people wanted them. It seems to be that the bishop would eventually be willing to grant them all of this in the future since they would have their own full time priest. If all they want is the tradtional Mass, that is a different matter.

 

[JReducation]

Are the people who want the traditional Mass want only that? If they eventually get a parish of their own, then they can have the traditional Mass plus all the other sacraments celebrated according to the traditional rites. Then there are the sacramentals celebrated the traditional way (not to mention restoring sacramentals which have been dropped since Vatican II). Then too traditional devotions could be revived if the people wanted them. It seems to be that the bishop would eventually be willing to grant them all of this in the future since they would have their own full time priest. If all they want is the tradtional Mass, that is a different matter.

I agree with you Father. I don’t understand what the difficulty is in understanding this. I also have a problem with the focus that the Bishop should not consider the finances, because we are talking about the Tridentine mass.

Every bishop that I have ever worked for has always required that any ministry prove to be sustainable.

JR

 

[whiteknite]

Oh, Whiteknite,

I AM so very proud of you…You are sooooo right that it was man that made the churchES…and I’ll bet you know his name ,too, Luther, right!!! (see I’m learning)

Gee, you ARE really smart: (I am so very proud that you are so brave to state that you are neither Atheist nor Pagan…) alot of peole would not make that stand. Cause that only means …(drumroll) YOOU"RE CHRISTIAN

 

[tallbeard]

Look up “extraordinary” in the dictionary.

This chaplaincy seems like a fine way to ensure that the extraordinary form of the Mass is done consisently and correclty (some off the other requirements mentioned in the original post also seem useful to this end) and does not overburden priests with other duties, who, by the way, cannot be compelled to offer the extraordinary form. I bet most pastors would be delighted if they only had to raise $72K each year to fund their ministry.

 

[whatevergirl]

AQ Report

Latin Mass Community to be charged $72,000 for Mass

By John Grasmeier
Angelqueen.org
April, 2008

Since the release of Summorum Pontificum - Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio removing restrictions on celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass - many local prelates and their diocesan hirelings have gone to great lengths to make life as difficult as possible for Catholics seeking to take advantage of it. From requiring priests to sit for formal Latin language examinations before offering the TLM, to suffering difficult (and even unlawful) permission schemes, traditionalist priests and lay persons have had to suffer all types of dubiously devised obstacles laid out for them by hostile ecclesiastical chains of command.

Some who follow such matters may tend to think they’ve heard everything regarding these shenanigans. Others, who know better, realize that when it comes to suppressing of the immemorial rite, never think you’ve heard everything.

In a first (a first not only in anti-TLM hubris, but quite possibly a first in the history of Holy Church) the TLM community in the diocese of Portland Maine was billed for their Mass. They are to be charged $72,000 per year, with an initial $18,000 down payment being due on or before July 1st, only a little over 2 1/2 months from the time this is being written.

The 72-grand will go toward the priest’s salary and benefits, office supplies and, astoundingly, rental of the church. Should anyone think this a joke or simply too outrageous to be believed, the following is presented:

It sounds like a legitimate request, considering that it seems like they are beginning a new parish, if that’s the right word, from scratch. I mean, that costs money…if the people who wish to attend this mass, and who would be continuously attending this church – hopefully, their donations will be sufficient. My concern would be that maybe the first year or so you would have a smaller number, until it grows…

It surprises me that a mass cannot be put into an already existing parish/church, without having to rent another one, with a willing priest–OR–different parishes ‘take turns,’ for lack of a better word, to build an interest in this mass, by having this mass at other parishes that already exist. It is not unreasonable if they have to set something up in a new church, with rental fees, etc…but I just wonder if they thought of any other solutions.

 

[Auntie_M]

Let’s look at two different scenerios…

FIRST…The diocese finds a priest who can and will say the Latin mass. (Great). He comes to the church where the $72,000 was raised. He says mass one time a week. by the end of the first year, he is saying mass 6 days a week and 3 times on Sunday. This building is just too small for all of this. They have shown the diocese that they CAN and WILL pay the original $72,000, so the diocese finds them another building or even Builds them another one. Since they have Proven themselves sustainable in the “first place”, the Bishop has no reason to think they can’t do that in the new building. NO PROBLEM

SECOND…The diocese finds a priest who can and will say the Latin mass (Great) He comes to the church where the $72,000 was raised. He says mass one time a week, by the end of the first year, He is STILL saying mass one time a week AND the numbers are dwindling. The second year they can only come up with $35,000. The people are constantly being asked to give more.
In order to sustain them. BUT, these people are strapped to say the least. What will happen? The diocese says, “all right”, you can use the church at no cost, (just as any good priest would want to help out). The numbers dwindle even more…Now there are only 5 families at mass, they can’t even pay the priest’s salary. The church has to “Help out” even more. But now, the burden of the extra money JUST to pay the priest is putting a hardship on the entire church, who, by the way, was barely making ends meet. (as some churches are). THEN, the entire church can no longer pay all these extra charges, They have to close this church entirely, No one is able to attend either mass.
Bummer…

The first scenerio…perfect…everbody happy
The second…NO BODY IS HAPPY…Bickering begins, “If it had not been for you, we would not have had to close our church.”
Not an outcome for good Christians, but definitely a possibility.
Now not only do they not have a church/priest/etc. The faith as a whole has gotten to a point of non-existance also.

Agreed, this goes to the extreme in BOTH cases. But in BOTH cases, it is a REAL possibility…

GET IT???

 

[Auntie_M]

I don’t disagree that they should pay. I am saying that if all of us really understood what was in the Mass, we would bend over backwards to make sure is was well funded. If we were acting like the church was family, we would be willing to do what it takes to make them finacially stable. I really don’t see why the people can’t have the latin Mass when it never should have been taken from them to begin with. If we can have a parish that has English Mass, Spanish Mass… Why can’t we also offer Latin Mass. Latin Mass belongs to all of our history. It is all of our culture. It may be the one thing that could bring us together.

I highlighted the area I will refer to…

We have ONE priest that CAN say both English and Spanish because all is the same except the language. ANY parishioner who an translate can assist the priest if need be. No problem.

We have ONE priest to say the English and the Spanish mass because all the rubics are the same. BUT now we need a priest that knows all the rubics of an entirely different mass. WE can ONLY hire another priest.

I can see that it could get VERY confusing to a priest to say
both. There are so many EXTRAS in the Latin mass that he would have to remember.

If I was doing this, I would have to stop and think, DID I LEAVE OUT ANYTHING…let’s see, this part belongs in the Latin mass and this belongs in …Oh No, I am really old person, I can’t remember all this. (silly, I know, but it could happen)

Two entirely different masses NEED two entirely different priest!!!

Let’s face up to it…I drive an old Chevy, my neighbor drives a Cadilac…I WANT A CADDY…can’t have it UNLESS I PAY FOR IT

 

[Auntie_M]

I wish someone would explain this to me…

The SSPX has bought alot of old buildings and made them into churches for the Latin Mass. The parishioners had no problem with the extra money needed to buy and refurbish these buildings.

They have actually amassed quite alot of properties.

Did the parishioners argue about that???

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I really wonder how people can continue to justify running the Church as a corporation where a black bottom line is the most important goal and not a church where souls are at stake.

I also think that it is trully disingenuous to say that a Spanish chaplaincy is totally different from a Latin one. To suggest a priest could be chaplain for the Spanish-speaking community by learning just enough Spanish to say the Mass or to be “assisted” by someone in the parish because he already knew the form of the Mass, as someone suggested, is absurd. A priest doesn’t just say the mass, but hears confessions and is often asked for pastoral advice, both of which require a fluency in the language. My cousin, who is a priest, took several years to learn Spanish and then spent a year on sabbatical in Mexico to perfect his fluency. No one demanded, or even to my knowledge suggested, the Spanish-speaking community in his parish pay for the cost of all of this. I would guess my cousin’s education and living expenses in Mexico exceeded $72k, but even if it didn’t, can you imagine the outrage that would have arisen if the bishop had told the Spanish-speaking community that they had to put down a deposit and then finance all of this or else they would be left out in the cold? What really perplexes me is what makes people think learning a new language to fluency is so much easier and less expensive than learning a new form of the Mass that its costs and burdens shouldn’t be placed solely on the community that takes advantage of it? This is especially confusing where everyone in the Parish can take advantage of the EF, but only one certain group can take advantage of the Spanish-language Mass.

I think this situation should also be looked at in light of Cardinal Hoyos’ recent statements suggesting that the EF should be celebrated widely, even in parishes where it has not been specifically requested. Apparently Cardinal Hoyos is of the opinion that everyone in the dicocese could benefit from having the EF, and not just the group who is currently asking for it. As I said before, this indicates that any dicocese should be more willing to spend money for an EF chaplaincy as opposed to a language-based one because the EF benefits all, where lanugage based chaplaincies generally only benefit those who speak the language.

In sum, there is absolutely no reason parishoners should *be required to pay *to attend EF Mass, under any circumstances, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to raise the money. An obstacle is an obstacle and I believe this obstacle is particularly egregious because it would not be tolerated if this chaplaincy was a Spanish or Polish or Vietnamese one, but is only justified because the EF is involved.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

It also begs the question, are the latino’s RENTING the church as well? If I were the poster, I would send that letter to the commission overseeing the latin mass in Rome.

A important distinction from the discussion at the link:

What if the Latino community suddenly started receiving a bill for $72,000 per year, after the Spanish mass had already been in existence for many years?

 

[LouisH]

In parishes where I have been when there is a Spanish Mass, the majority or a large minority of the people speak Spanish and financially support the parish as well as supporting it with their time and talent. They are parishoners of that parish.

Those who want the etraordinary form of the Mass would not necessary be parishoners of that particular parish and if they were a smaller group would not fully suppport that parish.

I really urge those people not to gripe too much. If the bishop sees that they are appreicate of the Extraordinary form of Mass and are willing to support it financially, I would think that they would eventually have their OWN parish church where they could have ALL the sacraments in the traditional rites as well as all the sacramentals. On the other hand, if all the bishop hears is griping and complaining, I doubt that he will be much concerned about it.

 

[He_Man]

In parishes where I have been when there is a Spanish Mass, the majority or a large minority of the people speak Spanish and financially support the parish as well as supporting it with their time and talent. They are parishoners of that parish.

Those who want the etraordinary form of the Mass would not necessary be parishoners of that particular parish and if they were a smaller group would not fully suppport that parish.

I really urge those people not to gripe too much. If the bishop sees that they are appreicate of the Extraordinary form of Mass and are willing to support it financially, I would think that they would eventually have their OWN parish church where they could have ALL the sacraments in the traditional rites as well as all the sacramentals. On the other hand, if all the bishop hears is griping and complaining, I doubt that he will be much concerned about it.

Why can’t the TLM supporters choose the time and talent route as ell then?

How much time and talent is required for $72,000 a year? That seems like a cop out for people who don’t want to shell out cash, much of the time.

The fact is, the TLM crowd has been paying into, and in some cases tithing for decades into the NO masses. And Now, where is the recompense?

It isn’t as though they’ve been saving their donations for this day. How about the NO crowd turn around and reciprocate for a few decades?

I don’t have a dog in the fight per se, but it is obvious there is some serious vitriol in this thread, especially towards those who would like a Latin mass.

It is amazing that natives on the continent of Africa are able to celebrate Mass at all. Where do they get the $72,000 for masses in the Congo???

 

[He_Man]

Uhh, they do. It’s called “the collection”. People who attend the TLM tithe just like everyone else.

If they want the cash upfront before there are any masses, then they shuld do the same for all the masses. Fair is fair.

That’s the point. Those who favor TLM and those who favor NO have funded NO for years.

Now, the burden for TLM falls solely on TLM. Where is the reciprocity?

 

[Auntie_M]

That’s the point. Those who favor TLM and those who favor NO have funded NO for years.

Now, the burden for TLM falls solely on TLM. Where is the reciprocity?

I am sure that IF there was a NEED involved the people would willing to chip in but this is more a “WANT”. I would say.

The spanish people are being picked on way too much in this thread, there is a large number of Spanish Catholics…You have the NEED for a spanish mass, and alot of them do not speak english, but they have provided for a translator within their community (in most parishes-not a paid translator). The rubics are the same, the readings are the same. There are no special places that have to be changed. They are happy. Leave them alone.

I don’t mean to offend anyone, but look at this from all sides.

Have you ever heard of any Catholic that would not jump in and help a fellow Catholic where there is a NEED?

Where there is a NEED, a Catholic is not far behind.

This tridentine mass has really been totally sabatoged by groups out there who are blasting the popes, the new mass and anything else they can come up with.

 

[estesbob]

BEFORE:

We want the TLM and we’ll do anything to get it.

AFTER:

We want the TLM but you need to pay for it.

Since the Pope issued the new rules on the TLM all I have seen is griping and complaining.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Can you give any specific example where those that wish to have the EF celebrated in their parish have been griping or complaining? I’m going to go out on a limb and guess the griping and complaining only comes into play when, as in this example, EF supporters are being treated arbitrarily differently than everyone else.

 

[GemmaRose]

$1,400 a week seems like so very much money. But, the sad reality is (as so many have acknowledged) many, many Catholics give so very little in the weekly collection that many, many parishes have a difficult time supporting themselves.

A parish here in Brooklyn where my great uncle was the founding pastor has suffered such a change in neighborhood in the past 85 years that I remember reading a few years back that their collections one Sunday amounted to $90… which was stolen out of the priest’s hands after the Masses.

We ask why Catholics don’t give as much as Protestants do… who knows? There may be nearly as many reasons as there are people whose contributions are low. However, there are many parishes who would be happy if each congregant would contribute $5 a week, instead of the dollar or two that some give. (After all, giving up one double latte mochachino a week would free up an extra $5 in the weekly budget.)

Here in New York, where everything is so expensive, I can’t blame anyone since so many familes are struggling just to put food on the table. In Brooklyn (which is one of the counties comprising New York City), small studio apartments can be $1,000 or more per month; 3 bedroom apartments, which are great for larger families, can be $2,000 a month.

One of my favorite forms of nearly free entertainment is reading the Real Estate Section of the New York Times for Manhattan (New York City’s main county) real estate. I came to this conclusion the first time I read an ad which stated: “A real steal! Only $6,000/month!” (Manhattan one bedroom condos are upwards of 1 million.)

Here in Brooklyn a/k/a Car Theft Capital of the Universe, car insurance rates are the highest in the country. What other Americans pay yearly for car insurance, we pay monthly.

Somehow, however, with all the bills we have to pay, we have collectively seemed to forgotten that our parishes have bills also.

We think, “Well, why can’t they just donate the use of their parish church for an hour a week so we can have TLM? What’s with $72,000 a year?”

It’s not just an hour a week.

If there’s warm weather, the air conditioning needs to be turned on at least two hours before Mass so the building can be cooled down. If there’s cold weather, the heat needs to be turned on in advance. These two factors may come into play depending on the time of the desired Mass. At the barest minimum, the TLM would require at least an extra hour of electricity or heat, or more if Confessions will be heard before or after the Mass.

The hosting parish would also take into account what they pay for insurance, calculate a percentage of their premiums and factor that in to the cost charged. Why? Because if anyone gets hurt on the premises, and if they started a lawsuit, the hosting parish would get sued.

Wear and tear on asphalt in the parking lot, footsteps wearing out carpeting, dirty footsteps dirtying carpeting which will need cleaning…

Costs of hosts and wine, cost of incense, cost of candles…

What if the hosting parish is the only one in a large area offering the TLM? I can foresee multiple phone calls coming in to the rectory, disrupting other work which needs to be done, asking “What time is that Latin Mass?” (If you think I exaggerate, I was witness to a phone call which came into the rectory on Christmas Eve at 11:45 P.M. where the caller asked, “What time is Midnight Mass?” ) The parish may need to hire someone part time to deal with the phones.

The diocese might also take into account that since those attending TLM are not attending Mass in their own parish, thus depriving their geographic parishes of their weekly offerings, part of this $72,000 fee might be to compensate their home parishes.

These are just a few things that I thought of.

Now, I have no clue as to how the sum of $72,000 was arrived at, but a financial analyst can calculate these things, and maybe the costs really do add up to $1,400 a week. I don’t know. It’s sad no matter how you look at it.

As to those attending TLM at the hosting parish, I doubt that they would be anything more than visitors unless they lived nearby. They would be using parish property and resources while not contributing to parish life (CCD teachers, youth sport coaches, choir members, etc.) This might lead to the attitude of the hosting parish that “these people are just visitors, not ‘real’ parishioners,” and therefore less willing to “donate” the use of their building. The parish would look upon TLM congregation as just another “group” which wants to use parish property for a meeting, such as AA.

Even though I do not attend TLM, I certainly pray that God, in His usual, mysterious way, somehow makes all this work together for the good.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

In parishes where I have been when there is a Spanish Mass, the majority or a large minority of the people speak Spanish and financially support the parish as well as supporting it with their time and talent. They are parishoners of that parish.

Those who want the etraordinary form of the Mass would not necessary be parishoners of that particular parish and if they were a smaller group would not fully suppport that parish.

so do the spanish speaking people belong to that parish?
Why is it you think the TLM people would not contribute time and talent? Again…TLM people get treated like second class citizens.

 

[Auntie_M]

so do the spanish speaking people belong to that parish?
Why is it you think the TLM people would not contribute time and talent? Again…TLM people get treated like second class citizens.

TLM people get treated like second class citizens ONLY IF you have a “VICTIM COMPLEX” Maybe a little counseling would help.

No Catholic ANYWHERE is treated like a second class citizen by another Catholic. This “Them against us” attitude is exactly what I referred to in my previous post.

 

[Auntie_M]

BEFORE:

We want the TLM and we’ll do anything to get it.

AFTER:

We want the TLM but you need to pay for it.

Since the Pope issued the new rules on the TLM all I have seen is griping and complaining.

This is a typical ALL-American thought process. I WANT and YOU PAY. (The NOW generation…oops the “modern” generation)

Get real people and quit complaining and complaining. I’ll bet IF the congregation PAID for them to have the Latin Mass, there would be another “request” and another “request” and another “request” where will it end?

What is fair…to all…?

As I remember, when the NO was instigated, this was NOT at the request of the laity, this came from the hierachy, We didn’t have a choice as to “pay or not”. We have mass, we pay…and as good Catholics do, we obeyed…