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Madaglan
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That’s ridiculous (the news story).
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Spiller
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Are you serious about that logic?
When the Pauline Mass displaced the Tridentine Mass it did so across the board with very few exceptions.
Think about it.
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DustinsDad
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Kind of funny…
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Swiss_Guard
Guest
My question is why was there contention within the community? Pope Benedict XVI clearly stated any priest may offer the Tridentine Mass. Obedience to the Holy Father means there should be no contention about a priest in the order offering the Tridentine Mass.We had a request for the EF in our parish. It was complicated. The Brothers discussed it and the Superior approved it, but then he withdrew the approval becaused it cause some contention among the friars.
He said that he needed to protect the unity of the religious community above all things. But he did give the pastor permission to find a secular priest or another religious priest who wanted to celebrate it.
Everyone is happy, because it was a good compromise. We’re fortunate, because those who love the EF in our parish also love the religious order and its spirit. They don’t want to compromise that.
It was made clear to the laity, that if this became a point of contention in the community, that the community would have to surrender the parish to the Bishop and that the Bishop would have to find someone to staff it.
Our parishioners who want the EF are not militant. They are very holy people without ressentment. They also love the tradition that the Brothers bring to the parish.
They were happy to hear that the Superior had given the pastor permission to find someone who knew how to celebrate it and encouraged the pastor to speak to the Bishop and see if the Bishop has anyone who can do it.
People feel that they are being heard. At the same time, they have great respect for the value of community and the importance of unity in the community. Before we had religious in our parish, it was very arid. Now it’s packed every Sunday and there are many beautiful ministries taking place there in which the laity is very involved.
JR
Sounds to me like some friars need a lesson in obedience to the Holy Father.
It’s amazing that those who told us who want the Tridentine Mass to “get over it” and “go along with the changes called for in Vatican II (which weren’t really called for by the council)” are now putting up obstacles to the Holy Father’s instructions on offering the Tridentine Mass.
If nobody wants the Tridentine Mass, why such hostility towards it and the Holy Father?
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dkoinzan
Guest
I can’t possibly read this whole thread so maybe I am repeating something someone else has already said.
Wouldn’t it be something if hundreds of thousands of dollars came pooring in? What a message that would send to the Bishop! He would see that these people are serious about their faith and on fire for what they believe and maybe he would allow them their own Church and Parish. I think we all should help them out!
Wouldn’t it be something if hundreds of thousands of dollars came pooring in? What a message that would send to the Bishop! He would see that these people are serious about their faith and on fire for what they believe and maybe he would allow them their own Church and Parish. I think we all should help them out!
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Paulette
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Paulette
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Someone posted that priests from CMRI say a TLM somewhere near Lewiston ME two sundays a month. Just because it’s a latin mass doesn’t mean it’s licit. CMRI is a schismatic group not in union with Holy Mother Church. You would not fulfill your Sunday obligation by going there. Incidentally, 15 CMRI nuns in Spokane WA left CMRI & are now fully in union with Rome, much to the happiness of the Pope. Please pray for them.
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LatinOnlyPlease
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Traditional Catholics are serious, they have built there own churches and schools all over the world, self supporting. Unfortunately for most on this site they do not support the “New Mass” which is not the ordinary rite even according to Vatican II. They belong to St Pius x , St Pius V or other independent ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHES. The fact that all those Bishops, Priests and lay people who scream at Trads to “Support and obey the Holy Father” , don’t do it themselves. They disobey all they want if the Pope utters something in support of the Traditional Latin Mass…Hypocrisy abounds in the N.O. Church…I hope those Traditional Catholics find a local TLM in there area and give up on this farce of the Motu Mass…Dominus Vobiscum…
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JReducation
Guest
No no no. I did not say that there was hostility. The problem was that no one wanted to learn how to celebrate it. The Superior can order them to learn it, because he has that authority. However, to have a Brother grudgingly doing something is not what you want in a religious community, unless it is absolutely necessary.
Also, remember, the Holy Father said that all priests can celebrate it. He does not say that they have to celebrate it.
In addition, you must remember, that the monastic and mendicant orders are exempt orders. They have what is called Pontifical Right. They must follow what is universal law for the entire Church. When there is an option, the Church gives the superior the authority to use the option. No bishop can interfere with that right, becaue Major Religious Superiors of exempt orders are also ordinaries, just like the bishop.
The bishop only has authority with matters pertaining to the parish, but not matters pertaining to the community. If the membes of a community are given an option and they take it, the bishop cannot mandate against it. The most a bishop can do is to ask that they leave his diocese.
Our bishop makes it a policy not to do this, because we have 4 religious to every 1 secular priest. When a mendicant or monastic religious order runs a parish, the bishop lets the Major Superior resolve all internatl issues. He can’t afford to have them leave or ask them to leave.
He would have to close parishes if he took this line. Even if he ordered pastors to initiate the EF in their parishes, the pastors must ask their religious superiors for a priest who can do it. The bishop does not assing religious to parishes. He gives the parish to an order and lets the superior take care of assigning someone.
The Superior never said that the EF could not be celebrated in the parish. The parish is not his domain. It is the pastor’s domain. But when the pastor approached the superior and said that he needed a priest for the EF, none of the friars wanted to do it. The Superior did the best that he could. He told the pastor to find a priest from outside the community to do it.
What the superior was avoiding was forcing the friars to do something that is optional. As an exempt order, the motu proprio is optional to them. Only when a decree includes the term regular priests does it apply to exempt religious orders. If the term priest appears without the “regular” in front of it, then it does not apply to priests who live according to a rule.
Priests who live according to a rule are Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians, Benedictines, Carthusians, Cistercians, Caremelite, Basilians, Trinitrian (acient form), and Camaldolese. All other religious priests are not regular priests.
This is something that the laity doesn’t always know, because it rarely affects them.
But again, there is not hostility or lack of love for the Holy Father. Just look at Fr. Benedict Groeschel or Cardinal O’Malley, they are Franciscans, but they do not use the EF, niether do the Eternal Word Missionaries on EWTN. They too are Franciscans. The Eternal Word Missionaries use the OF in Latin and English, but not the EF. Priests in these orders are exempt, because these are considered orders of Brothers, not orders of priests. That’s why they’re called Friars or Monks, depending on the degree of enclosure that they have.
I hope this is clearer.
JR
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pnewton
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The words of the Holy Father are not a “farce”. There is no Catholic Church apart from the Holy Father. I hope every one finds the Mass which best suits their worship, *in communion with Rome. *
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JReducation
Guest
If we read the letter that came with the Motu Proprio, it calls the OF the ordinary form and it also refers to the sanctity of the OF.
To call the OF a farce is to deny its sanctity. If you deny the sanctity of the OF, you must also deny the sanctity of the EF, since both are the same Roman mass, but in different external forms, not essential forms.
We’re not comparing the Latin Rite and the Ukranian rite. They have different essential forms without which the mass is either ilicit or invalid.
The EF and OF have the same essential forms. The external forms are different.
The Spirit of Christ has used both to lead many people to Heaven. Just look at the modern saints such as Mother Teresa. Her life was split almost half and half between the Tridentine Form and the Novus Ordo. He has not stopped her from being beatified.
Our sanctity is a matter between our soul and the Divine, not our soul and the form of the mass. The form of the mass is a means that the Spirit uses to communicate with our soul. He can use either form. Let’s not put handcuffs on the Holy Spirit and his grace.
JR
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Spiller
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Is that right? Could you name a couple of dozen? Thanks.
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mercygate
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Jeanette_L
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I cannot for the life of me figure out why the simplicity of this has confounded so many people.If we read the letter that came with the Motu Proprio, it calls the OF the ordinary form and it also refers to the sanctity of the OF.
To call the OF a farce is to deny its sanctity. If you deny the sanctity of the OF, you must also deny the sanctity of the EF, since both are the same Roman mass, but in different external forms, not essential forms.
We’re not comparing the Latin Rite and the Ukranian rite. They have different essential forms without which the mass is either ilicit or invalid.
The EF and OF have the same essential forms. The external forms are different.
The Spirit of Christ has used both to lead many people to Heaven. Just look at the modern saints such as Mother Teresa. Her life was split almost half and half between the Tridentine Form and the Novus Ordo. He has not stopped her from being beatified.
Our sanctity is a matter between our soul and the Divine, not our soul and the form of the mass. The form of the mass is a means that the Spirit uses to communicate with our soul. He can use either form. Let’s not put handcuffs on the Holy Spirit and his grace.
JR
Essentials - Forms
One rite – two Forms
Have we just gotten so addicted to the argument and our identity so wrapped up in it, that’s all it about anymore?
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Jo_Benedict
Guest
Note:
Please remember that, until May 2, the SSPX is still a banned topic. Thank you.
Please remember that, until May 2, the SSPX is still a banned topic. Thank you.
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Fstopf22
Guest
I prefer the Ordinary Mass over the Tridentine Mass although I would like to see some features of the Tridentine Mass blended into the Ordinary Mass.
Now to the question at hand. I feel that Mass should be provided without compensation NO MATTER THE FORM OF MASS.
Now to the question at hand. I feel that Mass should be provided without compensation NO MATTER THE FORM OF MASS.
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pnewton
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But the Mass is offered without compensation elsewhere in the ordinary form. That fulfills the requirement that the sacrament be made available to the faithful. The reality is that a priest must eat and the electric bill must be paid if a specialty Mass or a specialty program is to be started. On a case by case basis, of course someone can attend this Mass without paying. However, if there is not enough interest in the TLM to make the bills, then the availability will not be as great.
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JReducation
Guest
This ties in with what I have posted several times. If you take a priest out of a parish or other ministry, there is a loss of income, either for the priest or for his religious community.
Secular priests get paid for working in a parish. They do not work for free. As the word says, THEY ARE SECULAR MEN. The pay their own bills, plan retirement, buy cars, buy clothing, pay for insurance, cable, cell phone and vacations like every other secular man. They do not take a vow of poverty. They do not belong to a community that is going to take care of them in their old age. They do not belong to a community that is going to pay their medical bills or fix their car. They have to pay to pay for this. They also have to pay for their education. Most dioceses do not take anyone who does not have a Bachelor’s degree and they must obtain a Master’s degree to be ordained. The diocese usually pays part of the bill for the Master’s program. Those dioceses that are better off, will pay the entire bill.
If a priest is member of a religious community his income goes to the community. He may not keept any of it. The community uses it to pay the same bills as any family, with some exceptions. Religious communities are not allowed to have medical or retirement plans. They must pay for this out of pocket, because they make a vow of poverty. Poor people cannot afford medical insurance or retirement plans. Religious communities take care of their own retired members. This is a very expensive responsibility. They have to do this, because their vow of chastity marries the individual to the community for life. When a religious priest leaves a parish or ministry to do something else, the community still needs the income to take care of itself and those members who do not generate income.
You need numbers of people to replace that income either to the individual secular priest, who gets to keep his salary or the religious community whom you have to pay so they can provide you a full-time priest.
If a priest has to train to celebrate the EF and the Liturgy of the Hours in the EF form, sometimes there is a price tag attached to the training. Some organizations offer it for free and others charge.
It’s not unfair for a diocese or a religious order to say that they will give you a full-time priest, but you must cover his salary and the overhead.
I would never enocurage any group to ask for a full-time priest. It is easier to ask the bishop or religious superior if he has someone that he can lend you for one or two hours per week and just make a donation to the parish or to the order.
I’ve stopped posting as much as I did on this thread, because I’m finding that some people are unreasonable. There are some people who don’t understand that we live in a Counter Reformation Church. Prior to the Protestant Reformation the only priests who had to have higher education in theology were theologians. During the Counter Reformation the Church mandated that all priest must have at least a post graduate degree in theology or its equivalent and that all bishops must have Doctorate. None of this is free.
JR
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LouisH
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This sounds like it may be the beginning of a good thing to me. If all the traditionalits want is the Mass in the extraordinary form, then that could be made available at little expense. However, if they eventually get their own parish, then they could get more. For example, ALL of the sacraments may be celebrated in the traditional manner. Also, the sacramenals from the traditional rituale may be reinstated. In some dioceses the bishop confers the sacrament of Confirmation and even of Holy Orders in traditional churches.
It seems that the bishop is not trying to put up obstacles but to give people attracted to the tradional way of doing things more opportunities. If you want the bishops good, but careful of complaining and don’t gripe/
A young priest with whom I am acquainted studied Latin in the seminary even though it was an elective so that he could offer the extraordiary rite of the Mass. (He was so young that had never seen it in person.) After he was ordained he began to offer the Mass for the people who wanted the extraordinary Mass. Unfortunately, his experience was not a good one. If a made a mistake while saying Mass, the people would castigate him for it. After a while he got disheartened by their critcial attitude and no longer offers the Mass. I am also a priest who studied Latin so as to be able to offer Mass in the extraordiary rite. Sadly, many of the traditional Catholics that I have met seem to be very cranky people, and do a lot of complaining about the present state of the Church. I hope that my experiences are an anomaly, but they make me hesitant about getting involved in such a situation.
It seems that the bishop is not trying to put up obstacles but to give people attracted to the tradional way of doing things more opportunities. If you want the bishops good, but careful of complaining and don’t gripe/
A young priest with whom I am acquainted studied Latin in the seminary even though it was an elective so that he could offer the extraordiary rite of the Mass. (He was so young that had never seen it in person.) After he was ordained he began to offer the Mass for the people who wanted the extraordinary Mass. Unfortunately, his experience was not a good one. If a made a mistake while saying Mass, the people would castigate him for it. After a while he got disheartened by their critcial attitude and no longer offers the Mass. I am also a priest who studied Latin so as to be able to offer Mass in the extraordiary rite. Sadly, many of the traditional Catholics that I have met seem to be very cranky people, and do a lot of complaining about the present state of the Church. I hope that my experiences are an anomaly, but they make me hesitant about getting involved in such a situation.
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MLE
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Actually I know of no where in canon law where it says you could not fufill your Sunday Obligation by hearing the Mass of a schismatic priest; assuming he says the Holy Mass correctly and has valid Holy Orders. A validly offered Mass fulfills your Sunday Obligation. Can anyone show me some Church teaching which is to the contrary?
And my Benedictine cousin has assured me there has been no formal statement by the Church regarding the Holy Orders of CMRI. In fact the Church’s hierarchy has, in private circles, admitted that CMRI’s Orders are valid. Hence you can conclude that, as much as you may not want to admit this, attending a CMRI Mass is permissible, if not desireable.
Regardless of which point of view you choose to live by,** I **prefer the CMRI priests’ sermons and instructions in the Faith since they use the same language with which I grew up. I guess I’m dating myself.
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