Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[JReducation]

Actually I know of no where in canon law where it says you could not fufill your Sunday Obligation by hearing the Mass of a schismatic priest; assuming he says the Holy Mass correctly and has valid Holy Orders. A validly offered Mass fulfills your Sunday Obligation. Can anyone show me some Church teaching which is to the contrary?
And my Benedictine cousin has assured me there has been no formal statement by the Church regarding the Holy Orders of CMRI. In fact the Church’s hierarchy has, in private circles, admitted that CMRI’s Orders are valid. Hence you can conclude that, as much as you may not want to admit this, attending a CMRI Mass is permissible, if not desireable.
Regardless of which point of view you choose to live by,** I **prefer the CMRI priests’ sermons and instructions in the Faith since they use the same language with which I grew up. I guess I’m dating myself.

Here is what Canon Law says about receiving the sacraments outside of the Church. Notice the part that is underscored.

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-

Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

If you have a Catholic Church available to you, you must prove that there is a real need and that it is impossible for you to receive in a Catholic Church.

JR

 

[Auntie_M]

Please forgive my ignorance …but what is CMRI:blush:

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Religious communities are not allowed to have medical or retirement plans. They must pay for this out of pocket, because they make a vow of poverty. Poor people cannot afford medical insurance or retirement plans. Religious communities take care of their own retired members. This is a very expensive responsibility.

JR,
You are off a bit here. A religious brother/priest takes a vow of poverty. A religious community takes no vows.

Religious communities can have medical insurance and retirement plans. We pay for these with the money that the brothers (or in the case of my community, the friars, earn).

 

[ethelzguy]

This sounds like it may be the beginning of a good thing to me. If all the traditionalits want is the Mass in the extraordinary form, then that could be made available at little expense. However, if they eventually get their own parish, then they could get more. For example, ALL of the sacraments may be celebrated in the traditional manner. Also, the sacramenals from the traditional rituale may be reinstated. In some dioceses the bishop confers the sacrament of Confirmation and even of Holy Orders in traditional churches.

It seems that the bishop is not trying to put up obstacles but to give people attracted to the tradional way of doing things more opportunities. If you want the bishops good, but careful of complaining and don’t gripe/

A young priest with whom I am acquainted studied Latin in the seminary even though it was an elective so that he could offer the extraordiary rite of the Mass. (He was so young that had never seen it in person.) After he was ordained he began to offer the Mass for the people who wanted the extraordinary Mass. Unfortunately, his experience was not a good one. If a made a mistake while saying Mass, the people would castigate him for it. After a while he got disheartened by their critcial attitude and no longer offers the Mass. I am also a priest who studied Latin so as to be able to offer Mass in the extraordiary rite. Sadly, many of the traditional Catholics that I have met seem to be very cranky people, and do a lot of complaining about the present state of the Church. I hope that my experiences are an anomaly, but they make me hesitant about getting involved in such a situation.

What a wonderful post. I suspect from what I’ve seen and heard, that it is quite true. The hankering for the TLM, for many is just the tip of the iceberg, that iceberg being a giant disenchanted anger about many things.

Blessed are those who attend Mass, and leave filled with the Holy Spirit

 

[Neil_Anthony]

What a wonderful post. I suspect from what I’ve seen and heard, that it is quite true. The hankering for the TLM, for many is just the tip of the iceberg, that iceberg being a giant disenchanted anger about many things.

I get the same impression. Maybe they $72,000 fee was just to divert the complaints towards something fiscal and away from the priest. We all know if they get the TLM, they’ll need something new to complain about, and the priest doesn’t want it to be him

What ever happened to carrying your cross? If you don’t like the guitar music, find another parish, if you can’t do that, then buy some CD’s with chant and offer it up to God as a penance.

 

[MLE]

Please forgive my ignorance …but what is CMRI:blush:

CMRI: Initials for the religious Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen.

It is a congregation of religious founded in 1967 by men and women who wanted to retain the traditional values and practices of the Catholic religious way of life. And because their clergy have serious questions regarding the validity of the philosophy and theology which is the support and foundation of the changes emminating from the Second Vatican Council they have, within many circles in and out of the Roman Catholic Church, been dubbed with more than just a few unsavory names: including heretics, cult, but more often than not schismatics.

As per the rules of the forum I am not looking to forward the sede vacantist position or to argue its points. I am simply responding to a question for a definition. The defintion given here is nothing more than what could be found elsewhere on the net… wikipedia, etc. But since I have first hand information I thought I could give an accurate and unbiased answered.

If one really wants to know what CMRI is all about, I would suggest going and getting first hand information. Judge for yourself after you read their own statement regarding their theological position at: cmri.org/theolog.htm

 

[pnewton]

If one really wants to know what CMRI is all about, I would suggest going and getting first hand information. Judge for yourself after you read their own statement regarding their theological position at: cmri.org/theolog.htm

Thank you for the direct link. It was a real time saver in understanding what this group is about.

 

[dkoinzan]

This sounds like it may be the beginning of a good thing to me. If all the traditionalits want is the Mass in the extraordinary form, then that could be made available at little expense. However, if they eventually get their own parish, then they could get more. For example, ALL of the sacraments may be celebrated in the traditional manner. Also, the sacramenals from the traditional rituale may be reinstated. In some dioceses the bishop confers the sacrament of Confirmation and even of Holy Orders in traditional churches.

It seems that the bishop is not trying to put up obstacles but to give people attracted to the tradional way of doing things more opportunities. If you want the bishops good, but careful of complaining and don’t gripe/

A young priest with whom I am acquainted studied Latin in the seminary even though it was an elective so that he could offer the extraordiary rite of the Mass. (He was so young that had never seen it in person.) After he was ordained he began to offer the Mass for the people who wanted the extraordinary Mass. Unfortunately, his experience was not a good one. If a made a mistake while saying Mass, the people would castigate him for it. After a while he got disheartened by their critcial attitude and no longer offers the Mass. I am also a priest who studied Latin so as to be able to offer Mass in the extraordiary rite. Sadly, many of the traditional Catholics that I have met seem to be very cranky people, and do a lot of complaining about the present state of the Church. I hope that my experiences are an anomaly, but they make me hesitant about getting involved in such a situation.

I have been trying to make this point to the home schooling Mothers I hang out with. I want them to just be quietly present in a holy way. Show charity and you will eventually recieve charity. I think we have been told to put up and shut up so much that we get angry. We are always on guard and if we aren’t carefull we get distracted from what is really important. Jesus is present in the Eucarist and that is awesome! If we show that we are in love with Jesus maybe the priest will want to join in our joy.

God Bless you and I wish I could see you say the Latin Mass!!!

 

[Auntie_M]

To dkoinzan

I really appreciate your meekness. But I thoroughly enjoy the mass no matter HOW it is done. Jesus is there period and I certainly hope ALL priest joins in that joy. Be it the new or old, it is still the same Jesus. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. It didn’t take him going to a fine temple or “doing mass a certain way” he is wherever he is wanted . And THAT is the issue … He is in the Catholic church period. New or old. It really makes no difference. It may make a difference to those who need to have a certain “feeling” that he is there. but that is the people’s need. He is there no matter how we feel.

 

[Auntie_M]

to MLE

Thank you for your direction to the CMRI site. This rubbish is spliting our church. These “people” would do well to point their fingers to themselves and see their faults instead of pointing fingers to the ONE TRUE CATHOLIC church. It may be a good thing for them to start their own like Luther did.

Thanks, I;m sorry for sounding irate, but I’ve seen/heard this “false” church way too much. I have been in one of their masses, I do not care to see computers thrown out the front door and smashed
or hear a “Priest” brag that they have the Vatican on the run!!!

I will run with the Vatican if that is the case. I do not see Jesus as a liar and He said the Gates of Hell will not prevail.

This is a severe: lack of faith… …

 

[Spiller]

This sounds like it may be the beginning of a good thing to me. If all the traditionalits want is the Mass in the extraordinary form, then that could be made available at little expense. However, if they eventually get their own parish, then they could get more. For example, ALL of the sacraments may be celebrated in the traditional manner. Also, the sacramenals from the traditional rituale may be reinstated. In some dioceses the bishop confers the sacrament of Confirmation and even of Holy Orders in traditional churches.

It seems that the bishop is not trying to put up obstacles but to give people attracted to the tradional way of doing things more opportunities. If you want the bishops good, but careful of complaining and don’t gripe/

A young priest with whom I am acquainted studied Latin in the seminary even though it was an elective so that he could offer the extraordiary rite of the Mass. (He was so young that had never seen it in person.) **After he was ordained he began to offer the Mass for the people who wanted the extraordinary Mass. Unfortunately, his experience was not a good one. If a made a mistake while saying Mass, the people would castigate him for it. After a while he got disheartened by their critcial attitude and no longer offers the Mass. **I am also a priest who studied Latin so as to be able to offer Mass in the extraordiary rite. Sadly, many of the traditional Catholics that I have met seem to be very cranky people, and do a lot of complaining about the present state of the Church. I hope that my experiences are an anomaly, but they make me hesitant about getting involved in such a situation.

That’s very sad. Those people got what was coming to them…

 

[bobzills]

That’s very sad. Those people got what was coming to them…

Not necessarily. It could depend on how many mistakes were made and what these mistakes were and how serious they were.

 

[pnewton]

That’s very sad…

I agree. It is a real head-shaker for me why people, who insist so much the important distinction between laity and clergy during the liturgy, elevate themselves as self-appointed overseers of the clergy, despite their lay status. Perhaps it is with good reason that God did not call some to the priesthood. Attention to the liturgy is only part of the duties of a priest. The more difficult task is pastoring; applying truth, but in a way to shepherd the soul, not destroy the spirit. In a word, tact.

This is not something that all have. Silence is often the best course of action if one can not be tactful.

 

[Auntie_M]

Not necessarily. It could depend on how many mistakes were made and what these mistakes were and how serious they were.

No, it doesn’t depend on How many and what. This priest was doing the best he could and besides let’s don’t leave out the “intent”. If a priest says mass with the right “intent”, that is all that should be expected of him. We all make mistakes. Why all the snide remarks and criticism…He should have been encouraged, upheld and prayed for.

 

[Auntie_M]

Actually I know of no where in canon law where it says you could not fufill your Sunday Obligation by hearing the Mass of a schismatic priest; assuming he says the Holy Mass correctly and has valid Holy Orders. A validly offered Mass fulfills your Sunday Obligation. Can anyone show me some Church teaching which is to the contrary?
And my Benedictine cousin has assured me there has been no formal statement by the Church regarding the Holy Orders of CMRI. In fact the Church’s hierarchy has, in private circles, admitted that CMRI’s Orders are valid. Hence you can conclude that, as much as you may not want to admit this, attending a CMRI Mass is permissible, if not desireable.
Regardless of which point of view you choose to live by,** I **prefer the CMRI priests’ sermons and instructions in the Faith since they use the same language with which I grew up. I guess I’m dating myself.

You are right they are VALID…but not licit. A Protestant minister has a valid ordination, but they are not a Roman Catholic
legally ordained priest. There is a difference. But I know that there are those out there (WAY out there) that don’t believe this.
Read your Catechism…

 

[Spiller]

Not necessarily. It could depend on how many mistakes were made and what these mistakes were and how serious they were.

Naw.

A young priest with the dedication to learn Latin so he could celebrate the EF would hardly be making “serious” mistakes. He needed support while he was getting some practical experience celebrating the Mass. I can just imagine the nattering nabobs of negativity coming at him after Mass with their vitriol. Some of the so-called “mistakes” I have seen on this forum really make me wonder sometimes about the person making the complaint.

 

[Spiller]

I agree. It is a real head-shaker for me why people, who insist so much the important distinction between laity and clergy during the liturgy, elevate themselves as self-appointed overseers of the clergy, despite their lay status. Perhaps it is with good reason that God did not call some to the priesthood. Attention to the liturgy is only part of the duties of a priest. The more difficult task is pastoring; applying truth, but in a way to shepherd the soul, not destroy the spirit. In a word, tact.

This is not something that all have. Silence is often the best course of action if one can not be tactful.

What blows me away are two things. 1.) How quick some people are to consider themselves experts after reading a few websites and documents. 2.) How downright harsh they react to anything they perceive as a problem.

There are plenty of liturgically abusive clerical and laypersons that really have taken a tool. You’d think the hyper-critical/poor-formed would take a hint from their impact and not compound the problem.

 

[JReducation]

JR,
You are off a bit here. A religious brother/priest takes a vow of poverty. A religious community takes no vows.

Religious communities can have medical insurance and retirement plans. We pay for these with the money that the brothers (or in the case of my community, the friars, earn).

I stand corrected. I didn’t know that about the Carmelites. Capuchins, Missionaries of Charity, Brothers of the Poor and other communities do not have this. The vow of poverty is understood to be individual and communal among these communities.

Thanks for the info.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Not necessarily. It could depend on how many mistakes were made and what these mistakes were and how serious they were.

The last time I checked the ordinary superior for a priest is his Bishop or in the case of a religious is his Major Superior.

The laity is not his superior. How many lay people are liturgists?

The most serious mistake that I can think of would be to mess up the words of consecration. Anything else is small potatoes.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a mass that is centered on the priest and a laity that is authority over the priest.

After a while this gets old and I can see why any priest would say to his superiors that he doesn’t want to deal with this.

I know a relgious community who gave the Bishop four weeks notice that they were leaving their three parishes in is diocese because they could not deal with the laity. Guess what?

The bishop had to close down one of the parishes, because he did not have diocesan/secular priests to staff them. When he spoke with the Major Superior to negotiate with him to send in replacements, the major superior politely declined to do so.

People have to learn how to be flexible.

JR

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I stand corrected. I didn’t know that about the Carmelites. Capuchins, Missionaries of Charity, Brothers of the Poor and other communities do not have this. The vow of poverty is understood to be individual and communal among these communities.

Thanks for the info.

JR

Again, I think you are off on this. The vow of poverty is a thing a person takes, not a community. St Francis wanted his order to have a communal poverty but it was found that this was an unrealistic thing. Poverty means owning no property.

Most likely they have the same model we do which is through the Christian Brothers. We are self-insured. But we do this though an insurance company so that we get the negotiated costs that the insurance company has. If this was not so then there is no way any religious community could survive. As for retirement, we have retirement plans that we fund ourselves as well as taking advantage of Social Security (for those who have had other careers before entering) and Medicad.