Parrelels Between Jesus and Joseph

[MrZetterlund]

I was debating with yet another Mormon, and he brought something interesting to my attention. And that is Ezekiel 36:16.

As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it" ‘for Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions."

Now “rod” or “sticks” means the making of a record from the seed of Joseph. And for some strang reason, unbenounced to me, this means Native Americans carry this record. But it’s clear to me, that this is another messianic prophecy fullfilled by Christ!

I think Ezekiel was talking about Jesus, not Joseph Smith. And this is the clear interpretation since we know Jesus is from the tribe of Judah.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah (birthplace of David and later Christ,) Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One Who shall be ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” -Micah 5:2

A record of Joseph was definently made by Jesus Christ:

A shepherd of his fathers sheep: Gen. 37:2 & John 10:11, 27-29

His father loved him dearly: Gen. 37:3 & Matt. 3:17

Hated by his brothers: Gen.37:4 & John 7:4, 5

Sent by father to brothers: Gen. 37:13, 14 & Heb. 2:11

Others plotted against him: Gen. 37:20 & John 11:53

Robes taken from them: Gen. 37:23 & John 19:23, 24

Taken to Egypt: Gen:37:26 & Matt. 2:14, 15

Sold for the price of a slave: Gen. 37:28 & Matt. 26:15

Tempted: Gen. 39:7 & Matt 4:1

Falsely accused: Gen. 39:16-18 & Matt26:59, 60

Bound in chains: Gen. 39:20 & Matt.27:2

Placed with two other prisoners, one saved, the other lost: Gen.40:2, 3 & Luke 23:32

Exalted after suffering: Gen.41:41 & Phil. 2:9-11

Both 30 years old at the beginning of public recognition: Gen. 41:46 & Luke 3:23

Both wept: Gen. 42:24; 45:2, 14, 15: 46:29 & Matt. 1:21

Forgiven those who wronged them: Gen. 45:1-15 & Luke 23:34

Saved their nation: Gen. 45:7 & Matt. 1:21

What men did to hurt them, God turned to good: Gen. 50:20 & 1 Cor. 2:7, 8

Just thought I’d share that. God Bless.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Well, this certainly isn’t the heat of discussion, but atleast people are viewing it.

 

[otjm]

just as a curiosity, why do you get into debates with Mormons?

 

[MrZetterlund]

just as a curiosity, why do you get into debates with Mormons?

Woah… You know, I asked myself the SAME QUESTION.
Well, It all started on YouTube when I left a comment on a pro-Mormon video and I got a(nother) charitable letter from an LDS member. Even though I would never believe the Book of Mormon, I wanted to see if there’s any way to charitably reach them with some reason and the word of God. If there’s anything that Mormons are good at, it’s being compassionate on us poor uninformed non-Mormons.

 

[otjm]

Woah… You know, I asked myself the SAME QUESTION.
Well, It all started on YouTube when I left a comment on a pro-Mormon video and I got a(nother) charitable letter from an LDS member. Even though I would never believe the Book of Mormon, I wanted to see if there’s any way to charitably reach them with some reason and the word of God. If there’s anything that Mormons are good at, it’s being compassionate on us poor uninformed non-Mormons.

They are an interesting group.

I would not waste a lot of time with any of them who are in prosletyzing mode, as they are not listening.

You might have some luck getting them to pay attention if you find one who is not overly actively practicing, and/or married to a gentile.

Part of the problem is that most of them have not been overly exposed to anything but what the LDS church teaches. And that is taught from a strongly emotional standpoint, something that needs to be kept in mind. They are often fairly to very insular, in that they may be in the world, but they tend to not be “of the world”. By that I mean that if they are practicing, a large part (literally) of their lives rotates around their stake, bishop, and related church acitivites. It is estimated that by the time a boy reaches 12 or so, he will be involved in 15 to 20 hours per week of church and church related actiivites. The tendency among Mormon teenagers is that they band together in an almost “us against the world” mentality. The church is excellent at setting up youth activites and keeping them exceedingly busy. That is not to say they would not join any activites at the high school - they tend to with enthusiasm - but they are separated off from the student body by “seminary” (morning or evening classes every day on religious matters) and they are encouraged to not develop much in the way of friendships with other “gentile” students. and not only that, but most of their activities are with other Mormon students, so there is little time to develop much in the way of friendships and “gentile” students are not generally comfortable being around a group of them.

The net is that by the time theay are adults, they are inculcated with Mormon interactions. They might join something like Rotary and be a very enthusiastic supporter of it; but dollars to donuts they do nothing outside of Rotary meetings with any of the members other than business relations. That is, they keep to their own.

The net result of all of this is that if there is any possiblity of them parting from Mormon religion (I refuse to call most of it theology), the challenge is that they are being required to leave the complex social and emotional network that has been established since childhood.

It is not like we are going to logically show them the error of their religion - whether it is the total faking fo the translation of the Egyptian scroll, the constant changes that Joseph Smith made from start to death, the absolutely negative findings of their mythical history in the Americas, the wholesale lifting of passages (often long) from the Old Testament to their “sacred” writings, the lack of logical thought concerning eternal regression, the fairy tale quality of their vision of the afterlife, the total failure to show where, supposedly, the great apostasy occured, or any other means or source of introducing them to what Christianity holds. None of these are going to get traction, as it requires them to give up just about everything and everyone they know; all friendships, all security, all identity. The issue is not the logic or the truthfulness of what we say; it is the threat to their whole world if they question any part of it.

I will take my hat off to them in terms of how they have upheld sexual morality, especially among the youth. And in general, they strive to be morally upright. However, while I am willing to engage in a discussion if they start it, I don’t recommmend spending much time or effort in trying to evangelize them unless and until they are actually interested - and not from a simple curiosity standpoint.

 

[FCEGM]

Mr. Z, Catholic Answers responds to this common Mormon assertion re Ezekiel:

Q. "A Mormon missionary has been trying to argue for the Book of Mormon by discussing “the stick of Joseph” and “the stick of Judah.” What on earth is he talking about?”

A:
He’s referring to a verse in Ezekiel. The passage reads:

The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: Then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. (Ez 37:15-17, KJV)

This is one of several passages Mormons try to conscript to prove the Bible spoke of another inspired work of scripture that was to be brought forth in the “latter days.”

Mormons rely greatly on the Ezekiel passage as a proof text to demonstrate not only the possibility of divine scripture aside from the Bible, but also the Book of Mormon’s doctrinal equality with it. They assume that the “stick of Judah” is the Bible, while the “stick of Joseph” is the Book of Mormon. In these, the latter days, the two have been joined together, forming the bulk of Mormon scripture.

Mormonism’s professed literal interpretation of Scripture does not extend to hundreds of passages it rejects as corrupted or that it skews to suit its own purposes. In the case of Ezekiel 37, Mormons not only neglect the plain sense of the words but also ignore their true interpretation, given by God–in the very same chapter.

First, the Hebrew term translated as “stick” (aits) is never used anywhere in the Old Testament to mean “book,” “scroll,” “writing” or anything similar. It is variously translated as “wood” or “branch,” “timber,” or “tree.” Needless to say, the Book of Mormon was allegedly written on metal plates, not scrolls or sticks.

Second, the correct interpretation of this symbolic action of the prophet is given just a few verses later. Ezekiel is to take the two sticks, put them end to end and hold the joined ends in his hand. He thus displays to the people a “single” stick, once again united. This is to show that the scattered remnants of the Southern kingdom (“Judah”) and Northern kingdom of Israel (“Joseph”) will be returned from exile, restored to their land, and made one nation again. “They shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all” (Ez 37:22).

With divine impetus, Ezekiel first spoke this parable of redemption then enacted it. Only Mormonism can manage to mistake “timber” for “scrolls” and “nations” for “metal plates.”

Take a look at the passage in a more modern translation:
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the children of Israel associated with him,’ then take another stick and write upon it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him,’ and join them together into one stick. . . . Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (which is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him; and I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. . . . I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all sides, and bring them to their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms.” (Ez 37:15-22, RSV)

As the text makes clear, this is a prophecy of national reunification, not about the appearance of hidden scriptures.

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Mormons

 

[MrZetterlund]

replying to otlm: Dude, you should do a study of the life of Mormons and put it on Nat. Geo or something. Very detailed.

replying to FCEGM: Yeah… Also they interprit Amos 8:11 which says “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD"when I will send a famine through the land—
not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
As today’s time. When the 400 years between the OT and the NT are actually referred to as “the fourhundred silent years”

 

[otjm]

Mr. Z, Catholic Answers responds to this common Mormon assertion re Ezekiel:

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Mormons

While all of that is interesting, given their belief in the great apostasy and their emotional hold to their lifestyle and social world, one is not going to get much traction. Most Mormons whom I have met simply recoil when challenged on issues like this, and the discussion is over. Most have been taught that there was a great apsotasy, and that we will do all sorts of things to “disprove” this.

What their more educated people believe may be a different matter - and by this I mean those who may have actually studied graduate level scripture scholarship (so they would have been exposed to actual documents). They nmay continue to accept Mormonism in spite of conflicts within their “theology”.