PART 2 -- OSAS Again! Weeee! -- PART 2

[michaelgazin]

In another thread, this question was asked of Catholics by a OSAS person:

Curious:

Do you that don’t subscribe to OSAS or at least some kind of ‘security’ walk around in fear and terror all the time? I have to admit that I"ve often wondered what kind of misery it must be to have to live knowing that you’ll never know if you’ll make it.

Well, I believe the question should and could legitimately be extended to those believers of OSAS as well. The reason I say this, is because while some believe in OSAS, and others believe salvation is a process, any human could potentially be wrong, in that we are fallible humans and are prone to err. We don’t have to err, but we are capable of it. Therefore, those who are OSAS may have no fear in terms of their salvation, but they very well could have fear of a possible uncertainty in their translation of Scripture that ultimately resulted in their belief of OSAS. Every person who believes in OSAS must admit they could be wrong…the same goes for Catholics as well. Obviously, we are all our respective faiths because we believe our beliefs are accurate, but no one should be arrogant enough to claim they are incapable of erring in terms of their interpretation of Scripture. What this means then, is that if a OSAS person dies and finds out that that wasn’t the true doctrine, then unfortunately for them that belief does not guarantee them salvation, and they have to hope they met the salvific requirements while on earth. And on the other hand, if a Catholic dies and finds out that they had been eternally saved right from their baptisms, and they had nothing to worry about, then that is just a cherry on top and they are still getting an eternity in Heaven.

So to those who believe they are OSAS, do you ever have fear that you may be wrong about that, or that your belief may not have as much biblical certainty as you would like it to? I think that is a fair question, and that those who **do **adhere to OSAS should respond here.

 

[John_Henry]

I will say this. I used to be a Calvinist who believed in a version of OSAS, and I had no more peace of mind then than I do now as a Catholic. Seriously. I am not lying.

As a Calvinist, those who are the elect are bound to go to heaven. There is no two ways about it. But this theology only serves to push the question back one level. Sure, I can be assured that the elect go to heaven, but can I be sure I am one of the elect. How can one know, especially if it is struggles with sin issues that are disquieting the mind? And if I am not a Christian/elect now, then what further steps can be taken? I have believed. I have been baptized.

As a Catholic, I know that, right now, I am a Christian (as I have been baptized) and that I am in a state of grace, because I frequent the sacraments and avoid grave sin. And if I sin gravely, I repent and receive absolution…oh the peace. Now, you may disagree with Catholic theology on these points, but I can assure you that they lead to extreme peace of mind. Something I never experienced as a Protestant.

 

[VociMike]

John_Henry:

And if I sin gravely, I repent and receive absolution…oh the peace. Now, you may disagree with Catholic theology on these points, but I can assure you that they lead to extreme peace of mind. Something I never experienced as a Protestant.

Very interesting! I have always intuited that this would be the situation with Protestants, but not having been one it was just that, a supposition. Yes, God forgives sin, but how does one know they themselves have been forgiven? Well we Catholics actually hear the words of forgiveness spoken. Christ gave us the sacraments so that we would never have to guess, to wonder if the truths of our theology actually applied to us and our situation.

An analogy that I think applies is walking down a safe path through a dangerous forest in the dark. The Protestant believes “if I walk straight ahead God will guide me and I will be safe”, but will always wonder if they are not drifting off the path. For the Catholic the Sacraments, especially Confession and Communion, are like lights along the path. We move from light to light and at each light we are certain that we are still on the path. The more often we avail ourselves of the Sacraments, the closer the lights are to each other, and the less often we find ourselves in the dark between lights. God’s way (as revealed through His Church) is always the best way!

 

[Curious]

In another thread, this question was asked of Catholics by a OSAS person:

I’m sorry, exactly where in that last thread did I say I was OSAS?

Don’t assume. Ask. :tsktsk:

 

[michaelgazin]

Curious:

I’m sorry, exactly where in that last thread did I say I was OSAS?

Don’t assume. Ask. :tsktsk:

The implication was quite clear. Maybe not OSAS but certainly a type of “security.” “I have to admit that I"ve often** wondered** what kind of misery it must be to have to live knowing that you’ll never know if you’ll make it.” It is quite clear. Irregardless, the question is still legitimate.

 

[Curious]

Hmmm…well I suppose it’s my fault. You don’t know me and I can’t expect you to understand where I am right now. No biggie, I guess.
But still I never said I was, however the implication seemed clear to you. But anyway - hijack over.

 

[Matt16_18]

michaelgazin:

… no one should be arrogant enough to claim they are incapable of erring in terms of their interpretation of Scripture.

But that is exactly what the Catholic Church claims. She claims, (with good reason) that she is the church founded by Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit has been sent by Jesus to keep his church from falling into error. I don’t see anything arrogant about that claim, unless you consider Jesus to be arrogant in his claim that the powers of hell would not prevail against his church.

 

[Liberian]

Matt16_18:

But that is exactly what the Catholic Church claims. She claims, (with good reason) that she is the church founded by Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit has been sent by Jesus to keep his church from falling into error. I don’t see anything arrogant about that claim, unless you consider Jesus to be arrogant in his claim that the powers of hell would not prevail against his church.

Matt16_18,

I believe that michaelgazin was referring to individual people when he said that we shouldn’t be so arrogant. I agree that this is indeed exactly what the Catholic Church claims, and I agree with Mother Church on this score. But I don’t think even the Pope claims to be infallible–by himself–on the interpretation of Scripture. (Correct me if I’m wrong, somebody.) He speaks infallibly when he speaks ex cathedra, but if Joe Cardinal asks “Holy Father, what does _____ in the Bible mean?” I would not consider him infallible. I would hesitate for a LONG time before I disagreed with him, but I would not consider him infallible.

• Liberian

 

[carol_marie]

I agree with John Henry… I too feel the same degree of peace as a Catholic as I did as a OSAS Protastant. Maybe even more so now (Catholic).

With OSAS - whenever someone is our church would fall into grave sin (leave their wife for someone else… etc.) it was always stated, “Well HE obviously was never saved to begin with!” I’d worry… am I actually saved? I’ve prayed the sinners prayer but maybe I didn’t really mean it?? Maybe I wasn’t sincere enough? Since only God knows my heart, I worried that I was fooling myself. Every single time the Pastor would lead the congregation in the prayer to accept Jesus as our personal savior, I’d pray again… hoping it would “stick.” Trying to “feel” like I meant it and hoping I was one of the chosen ones. Where’s the security in that? Now that I’m Catholic, I know my eternal security is not based on my emotions - I’ve been baptized, I believe in Jesus, I attend His Church and I try to the best of my ablities to live a life that’s pleasing to Him. When I fail, I go to confession & I am forgiven.

Not to mention that now I know I have all my brothers & sisters in heaven praying for me - and Jesus’ own Dear Blessed Mother. I feel they are helping meto be faithful with their prayers. I’m no longer in it alone. Now that’s what I call peace.

CM

 

[michaelgazin]

Liberian:

Matt16_18,

I believe that michaelgazin was referring to individual people when he said that we shouldn’t be so arrogant.

Matt16_18…Liberian is correct. Certaintly I am not referring to the entire Church, the whole context of the post is referencing the individual person, specifically the OSAS person, and never once did I mention the Church. Now, however, you, me, nor anyone else can claim infallibility. As Scott Hahn said, “I certainly *can *err, or I wouldn’t be converting.” The whole question and post can only make sense if it is referring to the individual person, and that I am.

Yes there is one person who occupies an infallible office, but the other 6 billion+ of us on Earth do not have that charism unfortunately, and no, Jesus was not arrogant in guarding His Church from error.

So the question is, how much security does a person really have who believes in the certainty of salvation, based on an uncertain interpretation of Scripture?