Part 2: Vocations to love & relationship for faithful LGBT Christians

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Yes, I know it’s the tradition at ordinations, but it was just so moving to see it the first time, especially knowing how hard they have worked to finally make it to ordination. It blessed me and I wasn’t even involved!
 
Norseman82 said:
You are constantly getting upset about being told that gays have the same obligation as other unmarried Catholics, but that is the honest truth. Singles also do not have a non-sinful outlet for their “human needs” , and divorced people cannot get remarried to someone else (except in cases where their marriage is null), and people who find a divorced person are told that those people are off-limits (unless the marriage is a null one). So, tell us what makes you different from other singles and then we may get somewhere.
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That definitely gives me perspective 🤔
 
catholic1seeks said:
— (4) If you’re still not convinced, at least have an open ear from a fellow Catholic who happens to be gay. I am gay, I am Catholic, and I started this thread out of real concern. The fact that I take time to go on a Catholic forum, which is often hostile to all things LGBT, should tell you that I am being honest, sincere, and wanting direction and dialogue.
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I admire your bravery, as someone who falls on the Trans spectrum, I can definitely identify. Unfortunately it seems LGBT Catholics are forced to stay silent, leave, quit Christianity all together, or “pick up your cross”. I personally think most of all of the LGBT related passages in the bible have their issues. I find it telling that lesbianism has at best one diminutive mention in the entire bible. Now the Catholic church has determined for itself that most things LGBT are a sin, I see little real biblical support, but that is beside the point.

I don’t know, if not practicing anything LGBT is to be such a great sin, then what about other things that actually have more impact on the world, e.g. rape, abuse, and the like. These are the exciting topics of the day but the reality is they get more attention because they are “new”; never mind that there are way more abusive people out there than LGBT people. Given the larger issue of keeping people connected to church and even explaining any purpose God might have in their lives, why are we doing so?
 
Same sex attracted people are single people in the church; their vocations to love and friendship are those of any single person in the church.
 
These terms you use like gay and LGBT are not who theee people are called to be. They are called to heterosexuality and to chastity. Do we call people that struggle remaining faithful their spouse adulterers? We do when they commit the sin of adultery physically or in their heart and fail to repent. But those that are fighting the good fight against concupicience, we don’t call adulterers so why are we calling those fighting same sex attraction gay and LGBT? Why? Because that’s what the homosexual agenda uses, and it’s a bad term that only could worsen those fighting against this, or validates those that already have given into the sin.
 
Norseman82 said:
You are constantly getting upset about being told that gays have the same obligation as other unmarried Catholics, but that is the honest truth. Singles also do not have a non-sinful outlet for their “human needs” , and divorced people cannot get remarried to someone else (except in cases where their marriage is null), and people who find a divorced person are told that those people are off-limits (unless the marriage is a null one). So, tell us what makes you different from other singles and then we may get somewhere.
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One difference between gay people and straight singles is that straight singles haven’t been told by the Church that there is something about their sexuality that is “intrinsically disordered” or is “ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil.” And most straight singles didn’t grow up from the time that they were 12 or 13 with the knowledge that they were very different from the other children and had something about themselves that they had to keep a secret out of fear that they might be rejected or even harmed if it became known. And as adults in the church, straight singles don’t have to worry that they might be rejected or suffer discrimination if other people find out that they’re straight. But gay people might have the fear that they will be rejected or subtly discriminated against if others find out about their sexual orientation. It might be asked why a gay person should ever disclose anything about their sexuality, but it’s exhausting to carry secrets around and always be on your guard lest you slip up and reveal them inadvertently. And when people ask certain kinds of questions, its hard to keep making evasive answers.
 
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Norseman82 said:
You are constantly getting upset about being told that gays have the same obligation as other unmarried Catholics, but that is the honest truth. Singles also do not have a non-sinful outlet for their “human needs” , and divorced people cannot get remarried to someone else (except in cases where their marriage is null), and people who find a divorced person are told that those people are off-limits (unless the marriage is a null one). So, tell us what makes you different from other singles and then we may get somewhere.
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“Human needs” here isn’t some sort of code for sex.

Rather, what we’re saying is that in our modern society, including the church, we’ve basically got it set up so that the ONLY close relationships people have are with their spouses or with biological family. We’re getting the message that if you’re not married, anything more than a very superficial connection to someone else is bad.

We’re not looking to go out and have sex. We’re looking for connections to other people that aren’t about sex in a world - and often a church - that assumes any sort of real connection is automatically sexual. A straight person can at least hope one day to have a sexual relationship that has that emotional connection.

The message often seems to be that friends are for kids; adults aren’t supposed to care about friendship, just finding the one to marry.
 
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Do yourself’s favor and watch a recent comedy routine by Australian comedian called “Nanette”. Watch it through, especially to the end. It’s available on Netflix.
 
Actually, this was a good response. It is exhausting carrying secrets. But it does lead to some questions. Are there people with SSA who wish to remain chaste and faithful to the Catholic Church who practice “stopping” their thoughts? In other words, my sense is they keep feeding their fantasies rather than just telling themselves, “Don’t go there.”

Say a married woman keeps fantasizing about her male boss. At some point, she has to cut herself off from these thoughts and recognize they don’t lead anywhere. Are you and the OP suggesting there needs to be a place for her to talk to her friends about her fantasizing problem?

I’m genuinely wondering why a person with SSA would dwell on this part of their life.

As for people asking questions, we would all do well to ask each other fewer questions. People are so nosey. Say you’re a person with SSA and people ask if you’d like to go on a blind date with their friend. Can you just say, “I’m old enough to figure these things out myself” or “I’m not available for dating”? What exact questions are the problem?
 
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To the OP: I understand that married people are part of the center of society and everybody else is on the fringes. I doubt this will ever change. I spent four years on a certain project, and when it was completed, I announced it to my parents and got very little reaction. However, when my sister-in-law expressed she was pregnant in the same evening, my parents got all excited. To me, it seemed getting pregnant took little effort comparatively. Of course, I was happy, but you see what I’m getting at? What turns on most people in this world is the patter of children’s feet, a working car and a house. That’s just the way most people think.

Sadly, married people with children are also very wrapped up in their own little world. How often do you hear of them taking a single friend along to Hawaii? Sometimes at Thanksgiving, they try to invite a mentally ill friend over for dinner. But the reality is they have to be reminded of the presence of single people and all people on the fringes. So I’m not surprised people with SSA feel even less called upon to fit into society than single people.

My advice is to join a housing co-op, spend time with children, and invite mentally ill people to your home a lot.
 
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If you don’t like the thread, you don’t have to participate! 🙂

I was pretty clear in the OP and other posts.

Let’s be clear in a few simpler statements, hoping people will more readily read them:
  1. Participation necessitates a sympathetic approach. If you aren’t going to listen to the experiences of others, probably not best you participate in a thread of this nature.
  2. This thread assumes the fundamental teachings of Catholic sexual morality. No homosexual activity, got it. No same-sex marriage, got it. But we’re not talking about that.
  3. The struggles of LGBT Christians and single Christians overlap. But they are not the same, as LGBT Christians have unique challenges. Here’s one example: Many single Christians are single now but can still be married later. They have the hope to marry. Most gay people do not have this hope (at least, not to the people they fall in love with!)
  4. This thread uses “gay” in a way to mean exactly what most people understand by these terms: an internal, un-chosen romantic attraction to members of the same-sex – an attraction that includes sexual desire but also emotional and relational needs as well. Often, choosing not to use terms like “LGBT” diminishes the existence of such people. It’s easier to ignore other people when you can’t identify them.
  5. Anddddd to the main question. Re-phrased another way: How can our churches help LGBT people find alternative ways of friendship, community, intimacy, and especially family if they are not allowed to enter into same-sex marriages and romantic unions?
 
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There’s a variety of issues there.

One, it can be difficult if people want to suggest that you get married - it’s considered very unusual so there tend to be lots of questions. I do think our society can be a bit nosy in that regard. There’s also an unfortunate tendency for people to fill in their own reasons sometimes.

Two, some people are converts, or reverts, or something. People may know.from history. Even if they don’t know the person’s past, anyone who does have a past with homosexual relationships is likely to find it a bit difficult to conceal that fact while still talking about the past.

Three, some problems (like loneliness) are generally recommended to be fixed with marriage. It’s going to be a lot harder to ask for and get help if people are assuming you’re free to marry.
 
So beyond same-sex marriage and romantic paths that some LGBT Christians pursue, here are some possible alternatives for LGBT Catholics following church teaching.

Some may need nuance, but here are some ideas to get the conversation in a more fruitful direction:
  • Entering a religious community
  • Belonging to a Catholic (or other Christian) intentional community
  • Group of friends, whether living together or not: Be intentional about it
  • Living with family or extended family
  • Committing friendship
  • Entering into a celibate & committed partnership (say, a first step from a couple previously in a same-sex romantic relationship)
  • Marriage (the member of the opposite sex)
 
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I thought the conversation was yielding many fruitful responses. It’s almost like you have the answer already and we have to try and find it.
 
I think that what you and @Lara say about friendship is very true–and even what @Showerofroses described at the deacons’ ordination–our society is overly focused on sexual activity to the exclusion of friendship.

We also seem to think that friendship has to be between people with a lot of external similarities, so single college-educated professional women look for the same to be friends with, not thinking that maybe an older immigrant mother might be an even better match, not because of the externals but because of similarities in sympathy or sense of humor, or other deeper attributes.

One of my better friends was a woman who was at least 15 years older than me, no college, much more effective than I in almost all areas of life, but we got along much better than I do with many who are “more like me.”

I know a gay man who was great friends with an entire family: grandmother, daughter and son-in-law, and grandchildren.

He did not hide that he was gay, but he did not act like that was the entirety of his identity. He was involved in many activities at the parish, cared for disabled members of his family, and worked.

And maybe this last holds a clue for you, @catholic1seeks, he had a lot of life that was outside his sexual identity. He did things that had nothing to do with being LGBT. He was involved in the wider community.

So maybe the vocation of LGBT people is to forget they are LGBT and just be themselves? The fact that the wider society is obsessed with sex doesn’t mean that we have to be.
 
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At least 5 participants so far are not at all interested in actually listening to and answering the question.

If you were at all familiar with the first thread on this topic, you’d understand the frustration. Over 1,000 posts — and it didn’t gain much progress. Constant off-topic discussions. Constant alarmism. Constant strawmen and accusations.

So best to get the thread going with the kind of stuff I’m talking about.

There are definitely dedicated participants like @DarkLight and others who understand what this thread is asking, and they understand the kind of experience I’m conveying. I welcome the productive dialogue.
 
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I had seen some of the other thread. But are you saying I’m not listening to your question or answering it?
 
You are not the only participant in this thread. My recent posts were for the sake of setting the entire thread back on track.

But yes, I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
Many people are keeping secrets of one sort or another. It’s very difficult to socialize if you have any secrets. I know this firsthand.

I empathize with your situation but I might see things differently.
 
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