Participation idea needs revision

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I think it’s best to review how we view “participation” at mass. Can we not observe what goes on and its meanings and call it participation as one might do at an opera? Is it not possible that that may be one possibility why people find mass boring even with mariachi or rock music (not really being told at Catholic schools and sermons assists in that boredom since golf, too, is boring if you don’t understand the game)? Can participation not be a set-up/take down crew before and after the mass? Is it not a bit demeaning to think of participation as being nothing more than trying to get a lead or top supporting role in a school play? Has the mass been reduced to just some big egofest event for those whose “needs” aren’t being met? As George Carlin once said about our pathetic entitlement culture, maybe we should drop some of our “needs”. Maybe we need a good dose of “followship” training. I know, how about “the Litany of Humility” for starters?
 
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:
I think it’s best to review how we view “participation” at mass. Can we not observe what goes on and its meanings and call it participation as one might do at an opera?
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While such a thing is not only possible, it’s common – it’s also not what we are called to do! The Mass (or the Eastern Divine Liturgies) make us present at the cross as witnesses of the one death of Jesus celebrated in the context of His resurrection, simply being spectators is not “active participation.” We, too, are to die on that cross. We are to offer ourselves as sacrifice joining in the death of Jesus so that we might participate in His resurrection.
Is it not possible that that may be one possibility why people find mass boring even with mariachi or rock music (not really being told at Catholic schools and sermons assists in that boredom since golf, too, is boring if you don’t understand the game)? Can participation not be a set-up/take down crew before and after the mass? Is it not a bit demeaning to think of participation as being nothing more than trying to get a lead or top supporting role in a school play? Has the mass been reduced to just some big egofest event for those whose “needs” aren’t being met? As George Carlin once said about our pathetic entitlement culture, maybe we should drop some of our “needs”. Maybe we need a good dose of “followship” training. I know, how about “the Litany of Humility” for starters?
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I think that if we understand that each of us has a role in the Mass and if we understand what the Mass is, then boredom goes away because we can each do our part. Not all of us are bishops, priests, deacons, lectors, acolytes or cantors. Yet each of us has a role that is important.

Deacon Ed
 
re: all the liturgical dance polls, if we got this going in a big way the rest of us who are not lectors, EEMS, servers, greeters, ushers, cantors, choir members, drummers, guitarists, tambourine shakers, taking up the gifts, sign-interpreting, stalking around carrying lectionaries, or otherwise engaged, could all be in the chorus line (or conga line). That seems to be where we are headed with the interpretation of the new GIRM (great name, whose idea was that?) that calls for everyone to stand, sing and process during communion.
 
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:
I think it’s best to review how we view “participation” at mass. Can we not observe what goes on and its meanings and call it participation as one might do at an opera? Is it not possible that that may be one possibility why people find mass boring even with mariachi or rock music (not really being told at Catholic schools and sermons assists in that boredom since golf, too, is boring if you don’t understand the game)? Can participation not be a set-up/take down crew before and after the mass? Is it not a bit demeaning to think of participation as being nothing more than trying to get a lead or top supporting role in a school play? Has the mass been reduced to just some big egofest event for those whose “needs” aren’t being met? As George Carlin once said about our pathetic entitlement culture, maybe we should drop some of our “needs”. Maybe we need a good dose of “followship” training. I know, how about “the Litany of Humility” for starters?
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Mass is many times presented as a performance or is expected to be a performance by many. It is because of exactly what you posted “(not really being told at Catholic schools and sermons assists in that boredom since golf, too, is boring if you don’t understand the game)” Many people at Mass do not know why they are there or what is REALLY happening.
 
Unfortunately a great number (if not the majority) of Masses celebrated in the United States have become equivalent to the local playhouse theatre. At daily mass today, the grade school students were present. They had elementary students who were about 8 or 9 years old read the scripture, responsorial psalms, and about 7 got in a line and each read a petition in the microphone. The whole scene was utter silliness.

I can’t understand why older women (in particular) have this preoccupation with being at the altar, helping out the priest, and distributing consecrated hosts when it is not necessary. In my opinion this whole concept of “active lay participation” diminishes the role of the priest (which is the agenda of many dissenters) and belief in the Real Presence
 
The “older women” you see performing various ministries near and around the altar, may not be preoccupied with being priest wannabees. They may have been vigorously recruited by years of stewardship sermons, and pressed in to service in multiple ministries because not enough men have come forward to fulfill whatever this parish defines as ministries serving the Eucharist or the rest of parish needs. Can we please confine our comments on liturgical excesses to what action is actually witnessed, without speculating on the motives of those acting? Please?
 
At one time, only the priest would have access to the altar. His alone was the privilege and responsibility of proclaiming the Word of God, administering the sacraments, holding in his consecrated hands the Body of Christ and drinking the Precious Blood. His duty could not be replaced by a committee, nor his functions consigned to the laity. These days, in pretty much every parish in America, any member of the laity can read an epistle, or become an extraordinary minister (distribute the Body of Christ).

Why would a young man want to take a vow of celibacy and dedicate his life to serving God in the priesthood if those priestly functions most visible have been consigned to the laity? Why not just be a layman who “actively participates” in the liturgy?
 
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Fast_ed75:
Why would a young man want to take a vow of celibacy and dedicate his life to serving God in the priesthood if those priestly functions most visible have been consigned to the laity? Why not just be a layman who “actively participates” in the liturgy?
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The issue of celibacy is treated elsewhere.

Did you ever hear of the priesthood of the faithful?

Functions most visible? I don’t know what Mass you are attending, but the one that I attend hasn’t relegated “most” of the functions to anyone else; and those functions are pretty visible to me.
 
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asquared:
The “older women” you see performing various ministries near and around the altar, may not be preoccupied with being priest wannabees. They may have been vigorously recruited by years of stewardship sermons, and pressed in to service in multiple ministries because not enough men have come forward to fulfill whatever this parish defines as ministries serving the Eucharist or the rest of parish needs. Can we please confine our comments on liturgical excesses to what action is actually witnessed, without speculating on the motives of those acting? Please?
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To some degree I will agree with you. Some just want to help and if they truly were taught the faith they would be helpful in other ways.

But let’s also be real honest hear. The average age of the heretical liberal catholic groups like Call To Action, Voice of the Faithful, Catholics for Free Choice(these guys are baby killers) FutureChurch, Amchurch are all old. A photo of the events are full of gray hairs. These people and groups have worked very hard to demasculate the MAss and the priesthood.

Now for participation *Mediator Dei * does a very good job teaching the faithful
 
I don’t think the first one to respond to me and everyone else who responded likewise get what I am saying. That is the frenetic modern mindset of the Catholic faithful these days. If we read a book, we should read it critically. That is active. Of course, it never was, except on a weekday mass maybe, that the parishoners said nothing. These days, Catholics seem to want the mass to be like a “which-way?” book–they want to do everything that a priest (or, in the example, the author) should do. Jesus did not need helpers to handle his Eucharistic Body the night when he instituted the Eucharist (there is no record of apostles handing the host to disciples to hand out to other disciples); neither does the priest, except, as the Holy Father says, in “extraordinary” times (which I would think is rare where most parishes try to make the extraordinary, ordinary).
 
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:
I don’t think the first one to respond to me and everyone else who responded likewise get what I am saying. That is the frenetic modern mindset of the Catholic faithful these days. If we read a book, we should read it critically. That is active. Of course, it never was, except on a weekday mass maybe, that the parishoners said nothing. These days, Catholics seem to want the mass to be like a “which-way?” book–they want to do everything that a priest (or, in the example, the author) should do. Jesus did not need helpers to handle his Eucharistic Body the night when he instituted the Eucharist (there is no record of apostles handing the host to disciples to hand out to other disciples); neither does the priest, except, as the Holy Father says, in “extraordinary” times (which I would think is rare where most parishes try to make the extraordinary, ordinary).
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No, if there’s only 11 people going to communion (Judas had already left) there’s no need for helpers. However, if there are 900 going to communion and you are in a parish with two priests, one of whom is doing the Spinish Masses and the other the English Masses, you have two deacons (one doing English and one doing Spanish) you are going to need to have some help or communion will be unduly lengthed, especially if you are offering communion under both species.

As a bi-ritual deacon I give communion by intinction in the Eastern Catholic parish I serve. We have 200 people going to communion and with a priest and deacon it still takes 15-20 minutes to give communion. If we simply multiply that by 4.5 (to get to the 900 I talked about) we would have a minimum of an hour for communion – plus the hour for Mass.

Further, your premise seems flawed since I don’t think that “Catholics…want to do everything that a priest should do.” In fact, I rarely find a Catholic layperson who wants to do what a priest does. They simply want to be of service to the Body of Christ. This takes various forms at different times.

Deacon Ed
 
If you can’t wait ten minutes to receive the Body of the Lord, how are you going to react while in pergatory? You’re probably going to be flipping out and when it’s your turn who knows what could happen.

Oh, I know! Jesus can appoint lay people to judge the living and dead.
 
I think the original posted question is referring to the manner in which the faithful in the pews (liberals call them “the assembly”) participate actively in the Mass. Let’s just ignore all the hustle and bustle in the sanctuary for a moment, if it bothers you so much, and focus on the altar and what is happening there. That is where the attention of the congregation should be focused. Full active participation in the sacrifice of the Mass does not require each person present to be performing some liturgical ministry. It does require attention, reverence and awareness of what is happening, and desire to participate and partake of its fruits.

Where much catechesis on this topic, including mis-application of the new GIRM, have gone wrong is in beginning with the false assumption that it is the assembly, in the act of gathering for the purpose of worship, that creates the community, the Body of Christ. In fact, it is the action of Jesus Christ in His incarnation, life, suffering, death, resurrection and ascension, at the will of the Father, through the Holy Spirit, which the priest re-presents through his role as alter-Christus, that makes truly present HIS Body, Blood Soul and Divinity, and creates unity among all who partake in it.

Full active participation of the faithful requires more than being present and being a spectator. It requires participation in the dialogue between priest and people, including spoken and sung responses, attentiveness to the mystery (more than to distracting activities around us), and openness to receive Jesus through His Word proclaimed and physically through this mysterious gift of Himself. For those who cannot for whatever reason eat of the Body, their active participation is a share in the communion that is formed when the believers who do partake allow Christ be become present in them.
 
Does participation mean singing when you hate singing or at least are uncomfortable doing it and feigning outward joy and being filled with the Holy Ghost ? Some folks are just wired inward not outward and don’t go for visual display. They can even be accused of not being a good Catholic by failing to go through the routine of hand holding, arm waving etc. Where is a Mass for the quiet ones ?
 
I am still trying to figur out how one person reading the Old Testament reading and that person, or another, reading the Epistle, and someone being an EMHC has anything to do with any frenetic mindset, or “wanting to do everything that a priest should do”.

Voice or Reason: it isn’t most often an issue of waiting 10 minutes to receive Communion; when Communion with a large group of EMHCs takes 10 minutes; remove them and we are talking 30 to 40 minutes.

work(name removed by moderator)rogress: You are unfamiliar with the changes in the Mass in the last 60 -75 years. It was not at weekday Masses that the faithful said nothing; it was at all Masses, until a modification was made to give the layity (beyond the altar boys) some resopnses to say. I was there.
 
I think everyone from Voice of Readon–>Tom Wiseman got my point. As for being more wired internally, I think we should keep the exterior beauty of the Church building for the mass psychology of most people. We don’t go to world landmarks that look plain. People appreciate it for the work put into it whether they worship God or mankind. Noone says these places should be torn down and have the money from the expensive stuff given to the poor–just those that hate the Catholic Church or its beliefs, usually due to a darkened intellect. In the case of the new Los Angeles Cathedral, yeah, the money should have gone to the poor. I think stripping the Church buildings of their beauty helped anyone and probably did damage on the subconscious. Maybe the inwardly wired one here is subconsciously spiritually stimulated by a beautiful church. Many old churches were built by not wealthy people because they put their love of God into their edifice built to Him in His honor. I am not picking on you BTW. I am more angry at those bishops who give away ou beautiful churches to pay off debts but keep the ugly ones in the burbs. Maybe they should campaign to bring people out of the burbs and into the city.
To Deacon Ed. I said cases for extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are very limited; not unexistent. Still, maybe the long wait would be good for people–give them time to reflect on what they are about to receive or what they have received, provided they aren’t leaving early to watch football, play golf or mow the lawn. If some fundamentalist Protestant churches can have 3 hour long services plus what else, we Catholics can sit, kneel or stand for 30 minutes more. Maybe by telling the people what happens should they die after receiving Jesus having had sacramentally unrepented mortal sin on their souls and then having an examination of conscience handout of some kind in each pew, priests may cut down the 200-some that receive communion.
BTW I wish parishes would have at the entrance, signs telling people they “are in a house of worship and people may be worshipping, so please keep silence”. People need to get the clue that dropping by God’s house to visit Him is not like dropping by a friend’s place for a Superbowl party (minus the snacks). We can talk to friends in the nave, outside, or while eating coffe and doughnuts in the place where we can celebrate being a community in a more secular manner.
To OTM. I just go to a Latin mass that uses the 1962 missal. I assume things were said and/or sung during at least high masses. In any case, they do now and the music is so beautiful. There’s only one novus ordo mass I have been to that maintains the reverence I see at Latin masses. I don’t see chatting, play clothes except maybe one kid now and then, and leaving mass after commnunion there. As Fr. Stravinskas told Fr Pacwa, (very paraphrased but making his point) it’s probably the stupid stuff that goes on in most novus ordo masses that have people going to Latin masses. I am 29 and I am tired of seeing people scandalized at mass–so I don’t, except maybe when I go to Christmas or Easter mass with my family at the local parish (though it isn’t a true horror story)…
 
While I am sure there is ample right-brain literature to support the thesis of flapping about during the Mass, I, for one, amply disagree. The Mass is a drama, and I can feel it. There is a preparation of the soul and mind to witness to the sacrifice God made for our redemption, there is a recitation of deeds done, of teachings and wisdom given. I then profess my faith, and the Sacrifice progresses to its climax, when the physical bread and wine become my personal spiritual nourishment. I am then fed by my God, and can turn to another week (or day, or hour) of toil. I and many others need this nourishment. I do NOT need continuous distractions by miserable amateurs disturbing this communion with God. And, supposing by some miracle I found myself in a church with similarly disposed worshipers, I could engage in the ultimate communion with them. These performances we are forced to participate in are the ultimate, the dernier-cri, in narcissism.
 
I have to say that I am intrigued by the idea of non-participation at Mass and I can’t even begin to imagine it.

Think of this at the preface to the Sanctus.

Priest: The Lord be with you.

silence

Lift up your hearts.

silence

Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.

silence.

What kind of Mass would that be?

But I agree that perhaps some of the lay participation at the altar has gotten out of hand.

EMEs should remain in the pews for example until the celebrant has communicated himself of hanging around at the Altar all through the Mass.

And in some instances there are too many EMEs, I have personally witnessed the priest sitting down during Holy Communion and letting the EMEs do the whole thing alone.
 
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:
To Deacon Ed. I said cases for extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are very limited; not unexistent. Still, maybe the long wait would be good for people–give them time to reflect on what they are about to receive or what they have received, provided they aren’t leaving early to watch football, play golf or mow the lawn. If some fundamentalist Protestant churches can have 3 hour long services plus what else, we Catholics can sit, kneel or stand for 30 minutes more. Maybe by telling the people what happens should they die after receiving Jesus having had sacramentally unrepented mortal sin on their souls and then having an examination of conscience handout of some kind in each pew, priests may cut down the 200-some that receive communion.
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Perhaps you come from a small parish where there’s only one Mass on Sunday. My Latin parish has a one Mass on Saturday evening, five Masses during the day on Sunday and another Mass Sunday evening. We don’t have an extra hour between Masses to allow for long communions. The average number of communicants at our Masses is about 450 so we’re talking an extra half hour for communion (based upon my experience of how long communion takes at the Melkite parish I also serve). Practical considerations render this impossible, not to mention the fact that it skews the theology of the Mass by giving undue weight to the process of receiving communion.

I agree that the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion has become, in Rome’s eye’s, ordinary. On the other hand, if we are to give communion under both species (and Rome says this is a “more complete sign”) then we have a problem. Either we get more priests and deacons (and we’re certainly getting more deacons) or we use EMHCs.

Deacon Ed
 
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