B
bigdawg
Guest
What exactly did the study notes say?
- Status
B
bigdawg
Guest
Yerusalyim,
You state that Christians are grafted in the Jewish family. Please demonstrate this for me using scripture or Church documents.
J
jmcrae
Guest
The Judaism of today is not the same religion that Jesus practiced. That religion went down into the dust of the earth with the Temple in 70 AD.
There were two new religions formed after that event - Christianity, and what we today call “Judaism,” which is the new form of “religion of the book” that was developed by the rabbis in 90 AD, when they realized that the Temple was not going to be rebuilt.
Does the new Judaism have the same roots as Christianity? Yes, it does. Does it have a role to play in the salvation of the world? Obviously yes, since God is preserving it alongside of Catholic Christianity. Why? We will know this on the Last Day.
C
chosen_people
Guest
I think your confusing certain adaptations and developments in judaism after the destruction of the second temple with a formation of a new judaism radically different from the judaism of Yehoshua bar Yosef. The Jewish people had been in existence for over a millenium. Many already lived outside of Israel and carried out their religion away from the temple. The conflicts between Yehoshua bar Yosef were with traditional rabbinic Judaism.
R
RyanL
Guest
Did the Jews both inside and outside of Israel at the time of Jesus have Levitical Priests?
Do the Jews now have Levitical Priests?
If the answers to these two questions are different (which I believe they are), I can’t see your response being valid in any meaningful way. If I am wrong, please correct me.
God Bless,
RyanL
C
chosen_people
Guest
Jews also don’t have animal sacrifices anymore. So what? Your mixing up outside trappings with the essence (the torah and the oral law).
J
jmcrae
Guest
So, it’s a different religion.
Doesn’t the Torah command that there be a Levitical priesthood, and animal sacrifices? How does one “follow the Torah” without doing these things, or else without creating a new way of interpreting it than was there before (ie: a new religion that interprets the animal sacrifices, etc., in a symbolic or spiritualized way)?
C
chosen_people
Guest
By your logic changes in the traditional Catholic mass or stopping eating fish on friday changed Catholicism into a totally new religion. Did those changes make any difference in Catholic belief in the trinity?
J
jmcrae
Guest
We haven’t gotten rid of our priesthood, and the priest still says the same words of Consecration - he just says them in the common language of the place where he is, now, instead of in Latin, or in Greek.
C
chosen_people
Guest
The point to this thread is are you going to participate in the passover seder meal? If so, why? and will it be with Jews or Christians, if not, why not?
J
jmcrae
Guest
I will not, out of respect for the Jews.
T
TimOliv
Guest
I’ll save ya some leg work…
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
B
bettyg51
Guest
Want to know how to do a Seder?
Seder Passover menu, recipes and preparation
Dowload a copy of the Haggadah from hebrewcatholic.org/HCLiturgicalYear/SederinChrist/passoversederint.html
The Menu
Hard Boiled Eggs and Salt Water
Mandarine Orange Salad
Charoset
Beef Brisket with potatoes
Homemade bread
Orange Spiced Carrots
Ingredients Needed:
Produce:
1 or 2 cans Mandarin oranges
Glazed Pecans or almonds
celery
3 heads of red leaf lettuce (Romaine)
1 small red onion
red potatoes for roasting
medium carrots,
1 onion,
Parsley
1 cup chopped apples,
raisins
2 tsp lemon juice and a little grated rind,
Condiments:
1 cup red wine vinegar,
3 T. Liquid Smoke,
8 drops Tabasco sauce,
Barbecue sauce,
1/2 tsp. each for meat tenderizer, salt, pepper, celery salt, garlic salt, onion salt, paprika,
1 tsp. Worcestershire sauce, ground ginger, cinnamon
Baking:
oil,
sugar, 1/2 + cup brown sugar,
1/3 cup dried parsley,
1/2 sliced almonds,
1/2 cup chopped walnuts,
pecans
2 tsp vanilla,
2 T. flour,
1 tsp. cinnamon,
salt & pepper to taste
active dry yeast
1 1/2 cups whole-wheat flour
1 1/2 cups bread flour
honey
Meat:
3-5 lbs. Beef Brisket (plain, not corned beef),
eggs,
4 T. chicken fat or margarine, 2 T. water,
Orange juice
3 bottles of grape juice,
eggs
3 Matzah
===========================
The Plan
Tell guests the meal starts at 4:00.
4-6 Hours in Advance: (10:00 - 12:00)
Hard boil eggs
Make cookies
Make the Beef Brisket at 1:00 PM
Make the Mandarine Orange Salad, keeping the dressing separate
Make the Haroset
Make Bread
Prep for Orange Spiced Carrots
Set the table with one place setting more than the number of guests at the meal. Use table cloth and nice dishes.
Set it with Haggadahs, a candle, parsley, horseradish, salt water in small individual bowls, bowl of water for washing hands, small dishes for Charoset and salad, three Matzos are on the table in a special white covering called the “matzo toff” , or “Unity” on a plate. Flowers are optional.
30 Minutes in Advance:
Start cooking the Orange Spiced Carrots
Slice bread
Immediately Before Serving:
Dress the Manderine Orange Salad
Put out hard boiled eggs
Assuming Holy Saturday Mass starts at 8:00 PM:
2:00-4:00 Watch Mel Gibbson’s The Passion of the Christ
4:00 - 7:45 Seder, Clean up and get ready for Mass.
Seder Passover menu, recipes and preparation
Dowload a copy of the Haggadah from hebrewcatholic.org/HCLiturgicalYear/SederinChrist/passoversederint.html
The Menu
Hard Boiled Eggs and Salt Water
Mandarine Orange Salad
Charoset
Beef Brisket with potatoes
Homemade bread
Orange Spiced Carrots
Ingredients Needed:
Produce:
1 or 2 cans Mandarin oranges
Glazed Pecans or almonds
celery
3 heads of red leaf lettuce (Romaine)
1 small red onion
red potatoes for roasting
medium carrots,
1 onion,
Parsley
1 cup chopped apples,
raisins
2 tsp lemon juice and a little grated rind,
Condiments:
1 cup red wine vinegar,
3 T. Liquid Smoke,
8 drops Tabasco sauce,
Barbecue sauce,
1/2 tsp. each for meat tenderizer, salt, pepper, celery salt, garlic salt, onion salt, paprika,
1 tsp. Worcestershire sauce, ground ginger, cinnamon
Baking:
oil,
sugar, 1/2 + cup brown sugar,
1/3 cup dried parsley,
1/2 sliced almonds,
1/2 cup chopped walnuts,
pecans
2 tsp vanilla,
2 T. flour,
1 tsp. cinnamon,
salt & pepper to taste
active dry yeast
1 1/2 cups whole-wheat flour
1 1/2 cups bread flour
honey
Meat:
3-5 lbs. Beef Brisket (plain, not corned beef),
eggs,
4 T. chicken fat or margarine, 2 T. water,
Orange juice
3 bottles of grape juice,
eggs
3 Matzah
===========================
The Plan
Tell guests the meal starts at 4:00.
4-6 Hours in Advance: (10:00 - 12:00)
Hard boil eggs
Make cookies
Make the Beef Brisket at 1:00 PM
Make the Mandarine Orange Salad, keeping the dressing separate
Make the Haroset
Make Bread
Prep for Orange Spiced Carrots
Set the table with one place setting more than the number of guests at the meal. Use table cloth and nice dishes.
Set it with Haggadahs, a candle, parsley, horseradish, salt water in small individual bowls, bowl of water for washing hands, small dishes for Charoset and salad, three Matzos are on the table in a special white covering called the “matzo toff” , or “Unity” on a plate. Flowers are optional.
30 Minutes in Advance:
Start cooking the Orange Spiced Carrots
Slice bread
Immediately Before Serving:
Dress the Manderine Orange Salad
Put out hard boiled eggs
Assuming Holy Saturday Mass starts at 8:00 PM:
2:00-4:00 Watch Mel Gibbson’s The Passion of the Christ
4:00 - 7:45 Seder, Clean up and get ready for Mass.
B
bettyg51
Guest
Passover Recipies:
Honey Whole Wheat Bread
Ingredients:
1 1/8 cups warm water at 110°F
3 tablespoons honey
1/3 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 cups whole-wheat flour
1 1/2 cups bread flour
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1 1/2 teaspoons active dry yeast
Directions:
Add ingredients according to the manufacturer’s directions to your bread machine. Use the wheat bread cycle and light color setting.
Charoset
This simple side dish salad recipe is traditional for Passover, and is meant to represent the mortar used by Jewish slaves in Egypt.
INGREDIENTS:
3 apples, peeled, cored, and chopped in food processor
1 Tbsp. lemon juice
1/2 cup chopped walnuts OR golden raisins
1/4 tsp. ground ginger
1/4 tsp. cinnamon
2 Tbsp. sugar or honey to taste
3 Tbsp. Concord grape wine OR Concord grape juice
PREPARATION:
In medium bowl, toss apples with lemon juice until coated. Add remaining ingredients and toss gently. Cover and chill for at least 6 hours before serving. Serves 6-8. Place Charoset in small dishes at each table so available to all sitting at that table.
Beef Brisket
3-5 lbs. Beef Brisket (plain, not corned beef)
3 T. Liquid Smoke
1/2 tsp. each meat tenderizer, salt, pepper, celery salt, garlic salt, onion salt, paprika, 1 tsp. Worcestershire sauce
Barbecue sauce
Brown sugar
Red potatoes
Brush meat with liquid smoke (usually found at the grocery store near the Worcestershire sauce) and Worcestershire sauce. Mix all dry seasonings in a small bowl, and sprinkle over both side of meat. Let marinade in glass pan or tupper overnight (or at least 3 hours). Wrap in heavy duty (or doubled regular) foil and place in 9X13 pan. Bake at 300 for 3 hours, roll back foil and continue baking another 2 hours. Put the potatoes in when 1 hour is left.
Don’t pour off juice. Set aside to cool. When cool, remove from pan, slice thin and return to pan with juices. Refrigerate (up to a couple of days or freeze for up to a month). About 1 hour before serving, skim off hardened fat from juices, top with a little barbecue sauce and sprinkle with brown sugar. Reheat at 300 for 45 minutes to 1 hour, uncover for last 20 minutes.
Mandarine Orange salad
Dressing: 2 cups olive oil (or vegetable oil)
1 cup sugar
1 cup red wine vinegar
4 tsp. salt
1/4 tsp. pepper
1/3 cup dried parsley
8 drops Tabasco sauce
1/2 Glazed Pecans or almonds: cup pecans (or sliced almonds)
3 T. sugar
Salad:
1 or 2 cans, drained, Mandarin oranges
celery
3 heads of red leaf lettuce (Romaine)
1 small red onion
In heavy pan, constantly stir (to prevent burning) sugar and pecans until sugar melts and coats nuts. Remove to wax paper to cool. Salad: Wash and tear into bite size pieces, 3 heads of red leaf lettuce (Romaine is ok, but not as tender). Add cup diced celery; 1 small red onion, cut in thin rings; and 1 or 2 cans, drained, Mandarin oranges. Just before serving, add glazed nuts and toss gently with dressing.
Orange Spiced Carrots
Carrots with orange juice and spices.
INGREDIENTS:
4 cups diagonally sliced carrots
1 cup orange juice
1/2 cup chicken broth
3/4 teaspoon cinnamon
1 1/2 teaspoons grated lemon peel
3 tablespoons sugar
PREPARATION:
Directions for spiced carrots
In a medium saucepan combine carrots, orange juice, chicken broth, cinnamon, and lemon peel. Bring to a boil. Stir in sugar, cover, and simmer for 25 to 30 minutes, or until carrots are tender.
Honey Whole Wheat Bread
Ingredients:
1 1/8 cups warm water at 110°F
3 tablespoons honey
1/3 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 cups whole-wheat flour
1 1/2 cups bread flour
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1 1/2 teaspoons active dry yeast
Directions:
Add ingredients according to the manufacturer’s directions to your bread machine. Use the wheat bread cycle and light color setting.
Charoset
This simple side dish salad recipe is traditional for Passover, and is meant to represent the mortar used by Jewish slaves in Egypt.
INGREDIENTS:
3 apples, peeled, cored, and chopped in food processor
1 Tbsp. lemon juice
1/2 cup chopped walnuts OR golden raisins
1/4 tsp. ground ginger
1/4 tsp. cinnamon
2 Tbsp. sugar or honey to taste
3 Tbsp. Concord grape wine OR Concord grape juice
PREPARATION:
In medium bowl, toss apples with lemon juice until coated. Add remaining ingredients and toss gently. Cover and chill for at least 6 hours before serving. Serves 6-8. Place Charoset in small dishes at each table so available to all sitting at that table.
Beef Brisket
3-5 lbs. Beef Brisket (plain, not corned beef)
3 T. Liquid Smoke
1/2 tsp. each meat tenderizer, salt, pepper, celery salt, garlic salt, onion salt, paprika, 1 tsp. Worcestershire sauce
Barbecue sauce
Brown sugar
Red potatoes
Brush meat with liquid smoke (usually found at the grocery store near the Worcestershire sauce) and Worcestershire sauce. Mix all dry seasonings in a small bowl, and sprinkle over both side of meat. Let marinade in glass pan or tupper overnight (or at least 3 hours). Wrap in heavy duty (or doubled regular) foil and place in 9X13 pan. Bake at 300 for 3 hours, roll back foil and continue baking another 2 hours. Put the potatoes in when 1 hour is left.
Don’t pour off juice. Set aside to cool. When cool, remove from pan, slice thin and return to pan with juices. Refrigerate (up to a couple of days or freeze for up to a month). About 1 hour before serving, skim off hardened fat from juices, top with a little barbecue sauce and sprinkle with brown sugar. Reheat at 300 for 45 minutes to 1 hour, uncover for last 20 minutes.
Mandarine Orange salad
Dressing: 2 cups olive oil (or vegetable oil)
1 cup sugar
1 cup red wine vinegar
4 tsp. salt
1/4 tsp. pepper
1/3 cup dried parsley
8 drops Tabasco sauce
1/2 Glazed Pecans or almonds: cup pecans (or sliced almonds)
3 T. sugar
Salad:
1 or 2 cans, drained, Mandarin oranges
celery
3 heads of red leaf lettuce (Romaine)
1 small red onion
In heavy pan, constantly stir (to prevent burning) sugar and pecans until sugar melts and coats nuts. Remove to wax paper to cool. Salad: Wash and tear into bite size pieces, 3 heads of red leaf lettuce (Romaine is ok, but not as tender). Add cup diced celery; 1 small red onion, cut in thin rings; and 1 or 2 cans, drained, Mandarin oranges. Just before serving, add glazed nuts and toss gently with dressing.
Orange Spiced Carrots
Carrots with orange juice and spices.
INGREDIENTS:
4 cups diagonally sliced carrots
1 cup orange juice
1/2 cup chicken broth
3/4 teaspoon cinnamon
1 1/2 teaspoons grated lemon peel
3 tablespoons sugar
PREPARATION:
Directions for spiced carrots
In a medium saucepan combine carrots, orange juice, chicken broth, cinnamon, and lemon peel. Bring to a boil. Stir in sugar, cover, and simmer for 25 to 30 minutes, or until carrots are tender.
S
Sixtus
Guest
You cannot participate in a Passover Meal if you are not Jewish.
It would be insulting to Jews for Christians to ‘celebrate’ with such a meal. There has to be a Rabbi present and it has to be non-Christian.
S
Sixtus
Guest
Christians cannot participate in a Passover Seder meal. It is a Jewish feast and ritual enshrined in Jewish history. It is not Christian. It would therefore be an insult to Jewdaism for Christians to hold or celebrate the Passover with a Passover Seder meal.
It would be about as offensive as Athiests celebrating with their interpretation of the Catholic Mass
You could of course have a Christian Meal to celebrate the Passover but you cannot call it a Seder meal.
P
pacislander4lif
Guest
Amen… Why even bother with Seders, “christianized” or otherwise?
-Laurence
- Status