M
MrS
Guest
My concern is not how the Jews view the Church… it might only be how the Church can and should view our roots in Judism.
The Church is “grafted” into Christ “…I am the Vine, you are the branches…”
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The Church is “grafted” into Christ “…I am the Vine, you are the branches…”
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
Nor am I concerned about how Jews view the Church, I am, however, concerned about how you view the Jews. My perception, and PLEASE correct me if I’m mistaken, is that is that you view the Jews as no longer having a unique position with God and that the promises of God to the Jews no longer apply.
The Jews have been and will always be God’s unique people…the bible tells us Christians are grafted into Israel…
Romans 11:17-18 states
In fact, read all of Romans to get the proper view of Israel’s place in God’s eyes. Honestly, I detect hints of antisemitism in your comments, I hope I’m wrong about this…but your seemingly dismissive attitude toward the Jews is the same attitude that was exploited and allowed the persecution of the Jews by so called christians throughout history and culminated in the Holocaust. Again, I hope I’m wrong about my perceptions, if I am please correct me…but also, please realize the unique place of the Jewish people with God.
The Jews have been and will always be God’s unique people…the bible tells us Christians are grafted into Israel…
Romans 11:17-18 states
Now, the branch being refered to is Israel.
In fact, read all of Romans to get the proper view of Israel’s place in God’s eyes. Honestly, I detect hints of antisemitism in your comments, I hope I’m wrong about this…but your seemingly dismissive attitude toward the Jews is the same attitude that was exploited and allowed the persecution of the Jews by so called christians throughout history and culminated in the Holocaust. Again, I hope I’m wrong about my perceptions, if I am please correct me…but also, please realize the unique place of the Jewish people with God.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Actually, Catholicism is in perfect continuity with the Old Covenant. The Jews are the ones that have detracted and cut themselves off from truth and God and have established their own religion in rejecting Christ.
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
Goodness but aren’t we a lot of anti-semites? This is NOT the position of the church. Rather than spouting off anti Semetic nonsense might I suggest you read the CCC and see what it has to say about the Jews. It’s just this type of arrogance that allowed the holocaust.
Read CCC paragraph 839 and 840
"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Oh give me a break. I’m not anti-semetic. I’m Catholic. If you think they’re synonymous, then so be it. Notice that Catholics and not Jews are referred to as “the People of God” in your quote. The Jews lost this status by rejecting the Messiah. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about this. The Judaism of today is not the same as the Judaism of pre-Christian times. It is an entirely new religion. God’s people have been maintained in the Catholic Church, not the religion of the Jews.
M
MrS
Guest
yep… you are right in that you are totally wrong, and taking offense where none was even remotely intended/
I am pro-Catholic. So if that means I am anti-everything else, there is some truth in that.
If there are any religion(s) that are"unique" they would have to include many of the different theologies of the world… but they have one thing in common… they must ALL come to salvation through Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Son of the Living God… and only through Him can they attain Heaven.
O
otm
Guest
Established their own religion? You mean they have a new one since Christ was born? Do tell! I would like to hear more about it, as the only one I have heard about is the one they had going clear back to Moses…
O
otm
Guest
The Church also teaches that how that is accomplished is not necessarily understood or known, in application to those who have not been presented the Good News.
So, have you dug out your copy of the CCC and read what he suggested?
C
cameron_lansing
Guest
Robert Sungenis says many interesting things.
How about trying the USCCB Guidelines on the Presentation of Jews and Judaism in Catholic Preaching at usccb.org/liturgy/godsmercy.shtml ?
“28. It is becoming familiar in many parishes and Catholic homes to participate in a Passover Seder during Holy Week. This practice can have educational and spiritual value. It is wrong, however, to “baptize” the Seder by ending it with New Testament readings about the Last Supper or, worse, turn it into a prologue to the Eucharist. Such mergings distort both traditions. The following advice should prove useful:
When Christians celebrate this sacred feast among themselves, the rites of the haggadah for the seder should be respected in all their integrity. The seder . . . should be celebrated in a dignified manner and with sensitivity to those to whom the seder truly belongs. The primary reason why Christians may celebrate the festival of Passover should be to acknowledge common roots in the history of salvation. Any sense of “restaging” the Last Supper of the Lord Jesus should be avoided … The rites of the Triduum are the [Church’s] annual memorial of the events of Jesus’ dying and rising (Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy Newsletter, March 1980, p. 12).”
A discussion of the issue might also benefit from considering the materials of the Commission of the Holy See for Religious Relations with the Jews which is part of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, including the Guidelines and Suggestions for implementing the conciliar declaration Nostra Aetate
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
JSmitty,
I’ll say this politely as possible. Your position is bigoted. Your position is NOT supported by either the bible or by the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’ve posted quotes from the CCC that show the Jews are unique…note that the CCC went to PAINS to point out that the**…"the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable**."I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about that…it’s right there in black and white from the documents of our church. Yes, indeed, the CCC does call Christianity the NEW PEOPLE OF GOD…and rightly so…but no where does the CCC say that the “New People of God” have replaced the OLD people of God. I suggest for you a more charitable position toward Jews, and a deeper study of the doctrines of the church.
I accept that you are Catholic…so am I…and the Jews are still and always will be God’s Chosen people. I’m not saying YOU are antisemetic, but it is the attitude that dismisses the Jews as not being God’s people anymore that allowed the holocaust…and nearly 2000 years of persecutions. Being Catholic doesn’t make you right…nor does it mean you’ll be saved…don’t rely on that…I WOULD encourage you to actually know and follow the doctrines of the church though.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Do you really think that this is the cause of the holocaust…because they lost their status as the people of God? Doesn’t that logic necessitate that anyone that is not a member of the people of God be massacred and not only the people that formerly held such a position? Please prove your point using only pre-Vat 2 documents. If you can do that, I will consider what you’re saying. They hold much more weight with me.
B
bigdawg
Guest
What exacty are the “gifts and call of God” Yerusalyim?
B
bigdawg
Guest
By the way, it seems to me that it is true to say that the Jews are children of God, at least "according to the flesh”. But if they aren’t also Catholic then they have been cut off as the spiritual children of God, and their lineage to Abraham will not profit them.
B
bigdawg
Guest
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father” (1 John 2:23).
H
Hegesippus
Guest
Yerusalyim,
I believe Jsmity and the others are not anti-Jewish, but love the Jews so much that they would like to see them have a share in eternal salvation. This share could only come about with their conversion and acceptance than Jesus Christ was the messiah. Why would any Catholic not want this?
M
MrS
Guest
Which is why I won’t make the time to attend a Seder tonight… and will not stay away from the Holy Thursday Celebration.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
You’re right. It would be a sin against charity not to make efforts to evangelize them.
I
Ianjo99
Guest
I don’t think that the best way to evangelize someone is to refuse to participate in one of their sacred traditions (that in no way conflicts with yours, mind you) and then claim to be right.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call anyone here antisemitic, though many here seem to have a very narrow-minded view of things. I’ve been to a Seder and it was one of the most educational and enlightening religious experiences I’ve had outside the sacraments. To understand a sacred tradition that is a key part of both Christian and Jewish belief is quite important, in my opinion.
Having said that, if you believe that going is an affront to God in some way (despite them being the chosen people), then don’t go. Those that do want to go, however, are not impeded officially by any dogma or doctrine of Catholicism.
If you do go to a Seder being held by Jewish people, then don’t try to evangelize them there. Not only is it wildly inappropriate in that setting, it shows your own ignorance and arrogance about other religions (especially one so similar to your own). If you have such a longing to evangelize to them, then wait until a more appropriate time.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call anyone here antisemitic, though many here seem to have a very narrow-minded view of things. I’ve been to a Seder and it was one of the most educational and enlightening religious experiences I’ve had outside the sacraments. To understand a sacred tradition that is a key part of both Christian and Jewish belief is quite important, in my opinion.
Having said that, if you believe that going is an affront to God in some way (despite them being the chosen people), then don’t go. Those that do want to go, however, are not impeded officially by any dogma or doctrine of Catholicism.
If you do go to a Seder being held by Jewish people, then don’t try to evangelize them there. Not only is it wildly inappropriate in that setting, it shows your own ignorance and arrogance about other religions (especially one so similar to your own). If you have such a longing to evangelize to them, then wait until a more appropriate time.
C
chrisb
Guest
Grace and Peace be with you ‘all’,
I believe before anymore Catholics attempt to use very narrowly understood verses from Scripture to define Jews as being outside God’s Covenant may want to read the historic notes found in the NAB Catholic Study Bible - Second Edition which clearly articulates a much more generous understanding of these verses and have the authority of the Church behind them.
I’m personally so overwhelmed by this piece of work that I haven’t been able to put it down since I purchased it several days ago. It is a wonderful resource for all Catholics and does a beautiful job of explaining the real gift Christ has created for all the world in His death. Praise Him.
Although I do believe there is a real need for us, as Catholics, to apologize the world with this message of salvation we truly need to do so with great care and even greater understanding of exactly what the mystery of Salvation is and how it should manifest in the world.
Peace and God Bless.
I believe before anymore Catholics attempt to use very narrowly understood verses from Scripture to define Jews as being outside God’s Covenant may want to read the historic notes found in the NAB Catholic Study Bible - Second Edition which clearly articulates a much more generous understanding of these verses and have the authority of the Church behind them.
I’m personally so overwhelmed by this piece of work that I haven’t been able to put it down since I purchased it several days ago. It is a wonderful resource for all Catholics and does a beautiful job of explaining the real gift Christ has created for all the world in His death. Praise Him.
Although I do believe there is a real need for us, as Catholics, to apologize the world with this message of salvation we truly need to do so with great care and even greater understanding of exactly what the mystery of Salvation is and how it should manifest in the world.
Peace and God Bless.
I
Ianjo99
Guest
I don’t think that the best way to evangelize someone is to refuse to participate in one of their sacred traditions (that in no way conflicts with yours, mind you) and then claim to be right.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call anyone here antisemitic, though many here seem to have a very narrow-minded view of things. I’ve been to a Seder and it was one of the most educational and enlightening religious experiences I’ve had outside the sacraments. To understand a sacred tradition that is a key part of both Christian and Jewish belief is quite important, in my opinion.
Having said that, if you believe that going is an affront to God in some way (despite them being the chosen people), then don’t go. Those that do want to go, however, are not impeded officially by any dogma or doctrine of Catholicism.
If you do go to a Seder being held by Jewish people, then don’t try to evangelize them there. Not only is it wildly inappropriate in that setting, it shows your own ignorance and arrogance about other religions (especially one so similar to your own). If you have such a longing to evangelize to them, then wait until a more appropriate time.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call anyone here antisemitic, though many here seem to have a very narrow-minded view of things. I’ve been to a Seder and it was one of the most educational and enlightening religious experiences I’ve had outside the sacraments. To understand a sacred tradition that is a key part of both Christian and Jewish belief is quite important, in my opinion.
Having said that, if you believe that going is an affront to God in some way (despite them being the chosen people), then don’t go. Those that do want to go, however, are not impeded officially by any dogma or doctrine of Catholicism.
If you do go to a Seder being held by Jewish people, then don’t try to evangelize them there. Not only is it wildly inappropriate in that setting, it shows your own ignorance and arrogance about other religions (especially one so similar to your own). If you have such a longing to evangelize to them, then wait until a more appropriate time.
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