participation of women in the Mass, etc.

[bilop]

A recent thread touching on this subject was closed, so please try to keep this discussion civil and respectful.

I’m wondering if there is something I’m missing. I occasionally hear people speak with disdain about women filling various roles in the liturgy. For example, you might hear, “I would never receive Holy Communion from a woman.” The recent thread referred to a woman leading a penance service.

I’m wondering: Why is the issue with women? If the church allows these functions to be fulfilled by laity, why does it matter if the lay person is male or female?

I’m not looking for an argument about whether there should be Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, lay-led Communion services, etc. Whatever my (or your) personal opinions might be, the church allows them. I’m just wondering if there is something missing and if these positions are more correctly filled by men.

Historically, liturgical functions were limited to members of the clergy, including the minor orders. Altar service, etc., was performed by instituted acolytes, lectors, sub-deacons etc. All these were exclusively male.

Therefore, the traditional was not to have women in the sanctuary, b/c you didn’t have non-clergy in the sanctuary. Over time, these rules were bent, allowing boys to serve mass who had no holy orders.

Paul VI suppressed all these minor orders, so today there is nothing technically wrong with a woman lector, or EMHC. But the general perception remains that only men should be in the sanctuary.

I personally think the Pope should bring back minor orders, or at least encourage the institution of formal acolytes for altar service.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

This is completely missing all the issues involved.

It is exhausting doing mass in assembly line manner. We have 4 masses on Sunday morning and one priest. 300 average attendance.

It would add minimum 15 minutes, and has nothing to do with “patience”. It has to do with parking lot turnover, and the sanity of the priest involved, time needed to prepare for the next mass, among many other things.

If we returned to communion kneeling at an altar rail, this would not be a big issue. A priest can administer communion much, much faster if he doesn’t have to wait for the line.

God Bless

 

[Angel_Bradford]

This is completely missing all the issues involved.

It is exhausting doing mass in assembly line manner. We have 4 masses on Sunday morning and one priest. 300 average attendance.

It would add minimum 15 minutes, and has nothing to do with “patience”. It has to do with parking lot turnover, and the sanity of the priest involved, time needed to prepare for the next mass, among many other things.

Not to mention allowing that priest to try in squeeze in something to eat between Masses!

 

[ilySHJ]

… They are called to *bare *and raise holy children to help foster vocations, especially good and holy faithful priests.

Some typos are better than others! Mom, put some clothes on those babies! May God give you have at least one priest!!

as a female, I’ve been a sacristan, member of parish council, Rosary Altar (and held various offices in both), catechist, after-Mass-social organizer, parish representative at diocesan stuff, in charge of huge fundraisers, … and the list goes on and on.

Every pastor in my adult life has asked me to be an EMHC. Several have asked me to read. *No *and no. In my heart of hearts, I feel women don’t belong in these roles.

Since my heart is at odds with what Holy Mother Church allows, I keep my mouth closed. If there’s a female EMHC or a female reader, I don’t switch lines or leave.

If I’m the only one at daily Mass, Father knows he will be doing all the readings.

 

[bilop]

Not to mention allowing that priest to try in squeeze in something to eat between Masses!

I don’t think they can do this, unless there’s a big gap.

Priests are bound by the Eucharistic fast too.

God Bless

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Also, I don’t know if you have ever taught a class or anything like that. I have, and 1 hour of speaking leaves me exhausted physically and mentally. I couldn’t imagine asking any priest or deacon to concelebrate 5 Masses each week. By the time they got to the last one they would be so brain fried no one would get their best. Not the people, nor God.

They don’t have to concelebrate Mass (BTW: Deacons don’t “concelebrate”). Some of the priests could be hearing confessions during Mass, and then come out at the Agnus Dei to help distribute communion, as the other deacons and priests could sit in choir throughout Mass and then help distribute communion. Also, if communion is being distributed under both species, this need not occur, as one only needs to receive under one species, save for the celebrating priest who MUST receive under both species.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t think they can do this, unless there’s a big gap.

Priests are bound by the Eucharistic fast too.

God Bless

Not if they are celebrating more than one Mass in a day and their Masses are too closely spaced together. Canon law makes an exception for such. Apart from which you will have some who are diabetic and so need to eat regularly - and others who are just plain starving and might get dizzy and faint.

 

[bilop]

Not if they are celebrating more than one Mass in a day and their Masses are too closely spaced together. Canon law makes an exception for such. Apart from which you will have some who are diabetic and so need to eat regularly - and others who are just plain starving and might get dizzy and faint.

Did not know that. Priests I know fast before each Mass, even if more than one in a day.

God Bless

 

[LilyM]

Did not know that. Priests I know fast before each Mass, even if more than one in a day.

God Bless

Well if they have the Masses several hours apart, yes. Not all priests have that luxury.

 

[Brendan]

If we returned to communion kneeling at an altar rail, this would not be a big issue. A priest can administer communion much, much faster if he doesn’t have to wait for the line.

God Bless

I’d agree. We have 6 Sunday Masses at our parish. The am ones are 90 minutes apart.

We have about 1,000 registered families and about 900 at each of our two bigesst Masses.

We do not use EMHC’s. Father, and one of the two deacons at the ‘big’ Masses, distribute Holy Communion at the communion rail.

It takes less time than a smaller neighboring parish that use 6-8 EMHC’s

 

[Sarcelle]

EMHC’s are only supposed to be used in very rare and extraordinary circumstances, not every Sunday. The ordained clergy, which can only be men, are the ordinary ministers of holy communion. I try to avoid receiving communion from a lay person anyway when I attend the OF.

With regards to everything else (servers, readers, acolyte, singing the Propers of Mass) those are actually supposed to be roles filled normally by clerics, and/or properly instituted lectors/acolyte, who can only be men. Unfortunately, many diocese refrain from having these because they don’t want to exclude women.

Women have their place within the Church. They are called to bare and raise holy children to help foster vocations, especially good and holy faithful priests. Those who are not called to the married state, are called to serve the Church through their talents and gifts and with prayer. Women don’t need to be in the sanctuary taking up the space of the priest and doing his roles. I have actually seen a woman get into a tug-o-war with a brand new priest over a purificator when she started taking them and the cups of Precious Blood off the Altar and hand them out to the EMHCs (a big no-no) and the priest noticed and went to take over what she was erroneously doing. It was quite sad to watch.

This reminds me of the time when I was an Evangelical Christian. In my church, men were the only ones allowed to teach if both men and women were present in the audience and women were allowed to teach to women only. My church was labeled as “too liberal” by the other evangelical churches. In those churches women were relegated to minding the nursery and making snacks.

In our zeal to defend the traditional role of wife and mother, honorable in and of itself, women were then consequently viewed as wombs on legs.

 

[bilop]

Well if they have the Masses several hours apart, yes. Not all priests have that luxury.

If they’re close together, I’d think it’s actually easier. Or, at least, more straightforward.

Say a priest has masses at 8, 9:30 and 11 (which would be the extreme).

He need only finish breakfast by ~7:30, and then not eat until lunch at 12:30. That’s a pretty normal meal schedule.

In the old days it would have been tough with the midnight fast, but back then, priests only said one Mass per Sunday, and all masses started before Noon.

God Bless

 

[LilyM]

If they’re close together, I’d think it’s actually easier. Or, at least, more straightforward.

Say a priest has masses at 8, 9:30 and 11 (which would be the extreme).

He need only finish breakfast by ~7:30, and then not eat until lunch at 12:30. That’s a pretty normal meal schedule.

In the old days it would have been tough with the midnight fast, but back then, priests only said one Mass per Sunday, and all masses started before Noon.

God Bless

Which assumes the priest has absolutely nothing to do in between or before or after Mass. Doesn’t need to arrive early to help set up, or hang behind afterwards to greet parishioners or to clean the sacred vessels from one mass or set them up for the next. Doesn’t have people asking him to hear confessions or give counselling about their problems. Doesn’t have to drive any distance between parishes to say his Masses, or to and from where he lives. Doesn’t have to take communion to the sick or visit folks in hospital.

 

[bilop]

Which assumes the priest has absolutely nothing to do in between or before or after Mass. Doesn’t need to arrive early to help set up, or hang behind afterwards to greet parishioners or to clean the sacred vessels from one mass or set them up for the next. Doesn’t have people asking him to hear confessions or give counselling about their problems. Doesn’t have to drive any distance between parishes to say his Masses, or to and from where he lives. Doesn’t have to take communion to the sick or visit folks in hospital.

In the example stated, he doesn’t have time to do anything in between.

God Bless

 

[Angel_Bradford]

I don’t think they can do this, unless there’s a big gap.

Priests are bound by the Eucharistic fast too.

God Bless

As far as a priest who is celebrating multiple Masses on any given day, the Eucharistic fast only applies to the first Mass. After that, they are allowed to eat.

 

[agw123]

9-10 ordained men - the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion - Wow! I don’t see the absolute necessity for EMHCs. So what if Communion might take 10 or 15 minutes longer? Patience is a virtue after all.

mda

Not every deacon and priest is available for every mass. We have 3 priests, 1 priest who lives there and 3 deacons. The priest who lives there, his primary mission is at the high school to teach and be a chaplin at the local University. He sometimes says one of the Sunday Masses. Our Masses are 90 mins apart, leaving 1 hour per Mass for an orderly flow in and out of the parking lots and to keep the neighbors happy as not cause a traffic jam in a residential neighborhood. There is no extra 15-20 mins. Without EMHCs it would take too long in a semi-circle based church. Unless you are asking priests to keep to 5 min homilies to regain that time.

 

[bilop]

Not every deacon and priest is available for every mass. We have 3 priests, 1 priest who lives there and 3 deacons. The priest who lives there, his primary mission is at the high school to teach and be a chaplin at the local University. He sometimes says one of the Sunday Masses. Our Masses are 90 mins apart, leaving 1 hour per Mass for an orderly flow in and out of the parking lots and to keep the neighbors happy as not cause a traffic jam in a residential neighborhood. There is no extra 15-20 mins. Without EMHCs it would take too long in a semi-circle based church. Unless you are asking priests to keep to 5 min homilies to regain that time.

I think an 8-10 minute homily is reccomended, and you can easily do a OF Mass in 45 minutes with that. I’ve seen Sunday EF Masses done in under 40 minutes, with a homily of that length.

Even with an extra 10-15 minutes for communion (won’t take that long,especially if you use an altar rail) you’re still under an hour.

If you have to cut out something, reduce the singing, and have the Priest/Deacon chant the propers. Most Catholics don’t like hymns anyway.

God Bless

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think an 8-10 minute homily is reccomended, and you can easily do a OF Mass in 45 minutes with that. I’ve seen Sunday EF Masses done in under 40 minutes, with a homily of that length.

Even with an extra 10-15 minutes for communion (won’t take that long,especially if you use an altar rail) you’re still under an hour.

If you have to cut out something, reduce the singing, and have the Priest/Deacon chant the propers. Most Catholics don’t like hymns anyway.

God Bless

Ya…because that automatically makes it more reverent…we have a priest at my daily parish who rushes through the Mass…and he is supposed to be more traditional. It doesn’t seem very Holy to me neither does distributing communion like poker chips or playing cards…to get to rush through communion.

 

[bilop]

Ya…because that automatically makes it more reverent…we have a priest at my daily parish who rushes through the Mass…and he is supposed to be more traditional. It doesn’t seem very Holy to me neither does distributing communion like poker chips or playing cards…to get to rush through communion.

Who’s talking about rushing?

There are legitimate choices the celebrant/pastor can make to effect the length of Mass. They have zero impact on reverance. I’ve seen highly reverent 30 min Masses, and 1:15 Masses that make you want to cry.

Distributing communion at the alter rail is faster simply b/c the priest does not have to wait for the people to move in and out of position. He moves in a back and forth pattern, and people are ready for him. It doesn’t change the way the host is placed on the tongue.

God Bless