Pascal's Wager Argument

[Charlemagne_II]

This from an essay I am currently in the process of writing, just to give some background on Pascal for those who are not familiar with his life:

  "Blaise Pascal’s mother died when he was three. His father undertook to be sole teacher of his three children whom he considered too intelligent to be taught by anyone else. In the case of Blaise, this certainly proved to be for his advantage. Before he reached his teen years, he demonstrated extraordinary insight into complex mathematical problems by proving Euclid’s 32nd Proposition and discovering an error in René Descartes’ geometry. At the age of sixteen he had sent his “Essay on Conics” (today referred to as Pascal’s Theorem) to Père Mersenne in Paris. At the age of twenty he amazed the mathematical world with his "Treatise on the Arithmetical Triangle.” Just a year later he corresponded with the great mathematician Fermat and together they produced a breakthrough theory of probabilities.
 " In later years he would be hailed at the inventor of the first calculating machine (today he might qualify as the great grandfather of computer programs).  His other inventions include the hydraulic press, the syringe, and the concept of the first bus line through Paris in a vehicle containing many seats. Also he proved by several experiments with barometers, contrary to the belief of Aristotle, that nature can contain a vacuum. In his essay “On the Art of Persuasion” Pascal demonstrated that certain basic mathematical axioms cannot be proven, so we know only by intuition that they are true. He recommended from this conclusion that our approach to God is likewise limited at some point by intuition, and it is therefore useless to demand or expect a completely rational approach to God."

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Candide

*Indeed it is difficult thinking about death, it certainly takes courage to be an honest atheist. However, to come back to the terms of the wager, they don’t offer any compelling reason to believe or try to believe any more than my potential stabber leads me to spin in circles. You have to already believe in order for the wager to work to be more than speculation and as such is not going to be effective on those who don’t have faith. *

The compelling reason to believe is the fate of his immortal soul, which no atheist can prove he has not got.

You don’t have to already believe, as many an atheist on his deathbed can prove when he agrees after all to be visited by a priest.

Hope springs eternal. This is the basic defect of atheism, which is hopeless.

 

[jonfawkes]

Candide

Indeed it is difficult thinking about death, it certainly takes courage to be an honest atheist. However, to come back to the terms of the wager, they don’t offer any compelling reason to believe or try to believe any more than my potential stabber leads me to spin in circles. You have to already believe in order for the wager to work to be more than speculation and as such is not going to be effective on those who don’t have faith.

The compelling reason to believe is the fate of his immortal soul, which no atheist can prove he has not got.

You don’t have to already believe, as many an atheist on his deathbed can prove when he agrees after all to be visited by a priest.

Hope springs eternal. This is the basic defect of atheism, which is hopeless.

This is probably fodder for another thread - but why try to defeat atheism? Conversely why try to defeat theism?

I look at faith as like being in love, I can give the reasons why I’m in love but it won’t compel you to be in love. It’s something that rings true in ourselves. It can’t be forced or manipulated. Or pretend to be in love when your not. It strikes me as odd to be angry or feel them an enemy. (both sides)

“Why do you love what you love, I don’t see it?”

“Well, why don’t you love what I love, how can you not see it?”

Ad infinitum…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*So - “Try it, you might like it” and “well pretend you like it, and you maybe you will someday”

Unless, of course, your damned and then it doesn’t matter anyway. You better try only people who are damned won’t try.

Is he talking to a pre-schooler?*

Are you talking like a sneering atheist? Did you just blow your cover?

 

[jonfawkes]

jonfawkes

*So - “Try it, you might like it” and “well pretend you like it, and you maybe you will someday”

Unless, of course, your damned and then it doesn’t matter anyway. You better try only people who are damned won’t try.

Is he talking to a pre-schooler?*

Are you talking like a sneering atheist? Did you just blow your cover?

No, what adult wants to be spoken to like a child? It’s insulting and off putting rather than convincing.

See my last thread as well. I am secure in my faith, I’m not threatened if others don’t share it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*See my last thread as well. I am secure in my faith, I’m not threatened if others don’t share it. *

You take the objections of the atheist and argue them in a sneering tone as if you agreed with them.

Watch out! :tsktsk:

So - “Try it, you might like it” and “well pretend you like it, and you maybe you will someday”

That is your summary of Pascal? And if the “maybe you will someday” comes to pass, what skin is it off your nose how the atheist comes to Christ?

You seem to have no understanding whatever of human psychology or of the many ways Christ can seduce us into loving Him.

*I look at faith as like being in love, I can give the reasons why I’m in love but it won’t compel you to be in love. It’s something that rings true in ourselves. It can’t be forced or manipulated. Or pretend to be in love when your not. It strikes me as odd to be angry or feel them an enemy. (both sides) *

Again, you are being simplistic. Christ has done everything he can both to attract us and threaten us into a relationship. The attractions are for those who are open hearted. The threat are for those whose hearts are closed. That is the point of heaven and hell, the latter which Christ promises you if your heart is closed to him.

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

Again, you ask why be concerned about the atheist. That’s the line Cain offered God when he asked about Abel. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

I am. And so are you. Better we get used to it instead of acting like atheism is just fine with God.

 

[jonfawkes]

jonfawkes

*See my last thread as well. I am secure in my faith, I’m not threatened if others don’t share it. *

You take the objections of the atheist and argue them in a sneering tone as if you agreed with them.

Watch out! :tsktsk:

So - “Try it, you might like it” and "well pretend you like it, and you maybe you will someday"

That is your summary of Pascal? And if the “maybe you will someday” comes to pass, what skin is it off your nose how the atheist comes to Christ?

You seem to have no understanding whatever of human psychology or of the many ways Christ can seduce us into loving Him.

*I look at faith as like being in love, I can give the reasons why I’m in love but it won’t compel you to be in love. It’s something that rings true in ourselves. It can’t be forced or manipulated. Or pretend to be in love when your not. It strikes me as odd to be angry or feel them an enemy. (both sides) *

Again, you are being simplistic. Christ has done everything he can both to attract us and threaten us into a relationship. The attractions are for those who are open hearted. The threat are for those whose hearts are closed. That is the point of heaven and hell, the latter which Christ promises you if your heart is closed to him.

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

Again, you ask why be concerned about the atheist. That’s the line Cain offered God when he asked about Abel. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

I am. And so are you. Better we get used to it instead of acting like atheism is just fine with God.

Ha! - Just because I don’t hold Pascal with the same regard as you I’m a borderline atheist - that’s rich.

His wager and suggestions are simplistic, unconvincing and insulting. Sorry I don’t share you admiration. Doesn’t make me less Catholic.

I disagree that Jesus is trying to threaten us into a relationship. The relationship, like all relationships is a choice. You can’t force a relationship. It is like the choice to face the sun or seek the shade.

If the atheists wants to make a change, I’ll help but I’m not forcing anyone into something that they don’t want. Doesn’t seem very Christian to beat people over the head.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*If the atheists wants to make a change, I’ll help but I’m not forcing anyone into something that they don’t want. Doesn’t seem very Christian to beat people over the head. *

You can’t force people to believe. But you can attract or persuade or caution them to believe.

I see you are not the least bit interested in doing this with atheists.

You just expect them to suddenly love God without any reason whatever

“Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known.” Blaise Pascal

 

[jonfawkes]

jonfawkes

*If the atheists wants to make a change, I’ll help but I’m not forcing anyone into something that they don’t want. Doesn’t seem very Christian to beat people over the head. *

You can’t force people to believe. But you can attract or persuade or caution them to believe.

I see you are not the least bit interested in doing this with atheists.

You just expect them to suddenly love God without any reason whatever

“Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known.” Blaise Pascal

No,

There are very few atheists that aren’t familiar with Christianity, most (I’ve encountered) seem to be former Christians and Jews. Most are better versed in scripture and theology than most Catholics. They didn’t come to their decision lightly. I can respect the choice they made as their choice for their lives without agreeing with it or condoning it.

Since you like child level examples, it is as if God says “hey kids if you clean your room you get ice cream.” If a child doesn’t clean his room it’s not God’s fault or any of the other children’s fault that one child that chooses not to clean his room gets no ice cream. If you don’t do the work, you don’t get the reward. Like any exercise, results come from doing the work.

You can’t make a fat person loose weight, or an alcoholic stop drinking, or an atheist pray. Or more colloquial " You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink"

 

[davidv]

No,

There are very few atheists that aren’t familiar with Christianity, most (I’ve encountered) seem to be former Christians and Jews. Most are better versed in scripture and theology than most Catholics. They didn’t come to their decision lightly. I can respect the choice they made as their choice for their lives without agreeing with it or condoning it.

Since you like child level examples, it is as if God says “hey kids if you clean your room you get ice cream.” If a child doesn’t clean his room it’s not God’s fault or any of the other children’s fault that one child that chooses not to clean his room gets no ice cream. If you don’t do the work, you don’t get the reward. Like any exercise, results come from doing the work.

You can’t make a fat person loose weight, or an alcoholic stop drinking, or an atheist pray. Or more colloquial " You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink"

If the horse isn’t led to the water, it cannot drink, even if it wants to.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*" You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink" *

More to the point:

If you lead a horse to water, and he thirsts, he may well drink.

Pascal is offering to lead the atheist to God. He knows, and as a Catholic you should know, that the atheist really does thirst for God.

From Pascal:

“He has given signs of Himself which are visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who do not seek Him…. It would not have been right, therefore, for Him to appear in a way that was plainly divine and absolutely bound to convince all mankind; but it was not right either that he should come in a manner so hidden that He could not be recognized by those who sought Him sincerely. He chose to make Himself perfectly knowable to them; and thus, wishing to appear openly to those who sought Him with all their heart, and hidden from those who flee Him with all their heart, He tempered the knowledge of Himself, with the result that He had given signs of Himself which are visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who do not seek Him.”

 

[jonfawkes]

should

know, that the atheist really does thirst for God.

From Pascal:

“He has given signs of Himself which are visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who do not seek Him…. It would not have been right, therefore, for Him to appear in a way that was plainly divine and absolutely bound to convince all mankind; but it was not right either that he should come in a manner so hidden that He could not be recognized by those who sought Him sincerely. He chose to make Himself perfectly knowable to them; and thus, wishing to appear openly to those who sought Him with all their heart, and hidden from those who flee Him with all their heart, He tempered the knowledge of Himself, with the result that He had given signs of Himself which are visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who do not seek Him.”

Pascal’s quote doesn’t support your statement that atheists are seeking God. He is saying rather God hides from those that don’t seek, and makes Himself know to those that seek. One has to do the work to find him.

You gotta clean your room to get the ice cream.

Why do you think atheists “thirst for God?”

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*Why do you think atheists “thirst for God?” *

Because, for the most part, they are obsessed with God. Fleeing from God does not mean they are not thirsting for God. It only means that they are denying their thirst. Every atheist has a reason for denying his thirst. Pascal’s offer is to help quench that thirst by drinking at the fountain.

Taste and see the goodness of the Lord.

As a Catholic, do you believe that God made us in such a way as to thirst for Him?

As a Catholic, do you believe that the same thirst for Him can be transformed into a thirst for money, power, fame …anything but God, if the soul so chooses? As a Catholic, do you believe that souls can realize that they are thirsting for the wrong thing, and that they can find their true thirst by making a leap of faith?

Remember, you are a Catholic, so you have to give a Catholic answer. You can’t take the atheist position in answering this question unless you really do agree with the atheist position that we were not created to thirst for God.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*Pascal’s quote doesn’t support your statement that atheists are seeking God. He is saying rather God hides from those that don’t seek, and makes Himself know to those that seek. One has to do the work to find him. *

In seeking God the soul can be distracted elsewhere by ulterior motives. When that happens, God withdraws to accommodate the flight of the atheist, not wanting to impose His will by force upon the atheist. That doesn’t mean the atheist has ceased to thirst for God. It only means that his thirst has been stifled by the search for something else … money, fame, power, knowledge, sex, etc.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Here is a passage from St. Augustine’s Confessions that bears on Pascal’s insight about thirsting for God while at the same time fleeing from God.

*And man desires to praise thee, for he is a part of thy creation; he bears his mortality about with him and carries the evidence of his sin and the proof that thou dost resist the proud. Still he desires to praise thee, this man who is only a small part of thy creation. Thou hast prompted him, that he should delight to praise thee, for thou hast made us for thyself and restless is our heart until it comes to rest in thee.

Grant me, O Lord, to know and understand whether first to invoke thee or to praise thee; whether first to know thee or call upon thee. But who can invoke thee, knowing thee not? For he who knows thee not may invoke thee as another than thou art.

It may be that we should invoke thee in order that we may come to know thee. But “how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe without a preacher?”

Now, “they shall praise the Lord who seek him,” for “those who seek shall find him,” and, finding him, shall praise him. I will seek thee, O Lord, and call upon thee. I call upon thee, O Lord, in my faith which thou hast given me, which thou hast inspired in me through the humanity of thy Son, *

 

[jonfawkes]

Here is a passage from St. Augustine’s Confessions that bears on Pascal’s insight about thirsting for God while at the same time fleeing from God.

*And man desires to praise thee, for he is a part of thy creation; he bears his mortality about with him and carries the evidence of his sin and the proof that thou dost resist the proud. Still he desires to praise thee, this man who is only a small part of thy creation. Thou hast prompted him, that he should delight to praise thee, for thou hast made us for thyself and restless is our heart until it comes to rest in thee.

Grant me, O Lord, to know and understand whether first to invoke thee or to praise thee; whether first to know thee or call upon thee. But who can invoke thee, knowing thee not? For he who knows thee not may invoke thee as another than thou art.*

It may be that we should invoke thee in order that we may come to know thee. But “how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe without a preacher?”

Now, “they shall praise the Lord who seek him,” for “those who seek shall find him,” and, finding him, shall praise him. I will seek thee, O Lord, and call upon thee. I call upon thee, O Lord, in my faith which thou hast given me, which thou hast inspired in me through the humanity of thy Son,

This makes two basic assumptions that I know from empirical, albeit anecdotal evidence not to be true.

One, that those that don’t believe haven’t heard.
Two, that all that hear will seek and believe.

There are a few atheists floating around here. Do you think they are ignorant of the Trinitarian God and Catholic teaching? Why are they still atheists? ( yes, I know you are holding out for the best )

Also it makes the assumption the we being created by God seek him. As Catholics we hold this to be true. Atheists don’t function in that paradigm. It is as if a Hindu tells you that you serve the will of the Brahman.

“Well, yes that is very nice, but I serve the Lord” - Brahman is meaningless to you, because you are functioning under a different paradigm.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jonfawkes

*Also it makes the assumption the we being created by God seek him. As Catholics we hold this to be true. Atheists don’t function in that paradigm. *

Of course they don’t. But at least as a Catholic you agree that God made us all to seek him, whether we seek Him or not?

That is the essential point Pascal is making. The overt (as opposed to denied) seeking will come if it has a motive. And the motive is the fate of our immortal soul which hangs in the balance depending on whether we go with God or against Him.

Pascal is concerned about the fate of atheists, though I don’t see that you are since you are quick to talk about paradigms as if you are a relativist. Am I right that you are a relativist? Am I right that you believe the atheist who dies an atheist will be forgiven all his sins (including atheism) on the other side just because he lives by a different paradigm?

 

[jonfawkes]

jonfawkes

*Also it makes the assumption the we being created by God seek him. As Catholics we hold this to be true. Atheists don’t function in that paradigm. *

Of course they don’t. But at least as a Catholic you agree that God made us all to seek him, whether we seek Him or not?

That is the essential point Pascal is making. The overt (as opposed to denied) seeking will come if it has a motive. And the motive is the fate of our immortal soul which hangs in the balance depending on whether we go with God or against Him.

Pascal is concerned about the fate of atheists, though I don’t see that you are since you are quick to talk about paradigms as if you are a relativist. Am I right that you are a relativist? Am I right that you believe the atheist who dies an atheist will be forgiven all his sins (including atheism) on the other side just because he lives by a different paradigm?

I don’t see how a loving God would not forgive, provided unbelief was the most grievous of their sins. That brings us back to free will. If you believe it ends at death or not. I think God is always ready to welcome us home his Prodigal sons.

 

[davidv]

I don’t see how a loving God would not forgive, provided unbelief was the most grievous of their sins. That brings us back to free will. If you believe it ends at death or not. I think God is always ready to welcome us home his Prodigal sons.

I you won’t admit that you squandered your inheritance, why would you even want to be invited back?

 

[jonfawkes]

I you won’t admit that you squandered your inheritance, why would you even want to be invited back?

At death - “oh, guess I was wrong, what’s next”