Pascal's Wager Argument

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jon

Not according to the Jews.

Yes according to the Jews. Jesus’ coming is prophesied over and over in the New Testament, a Jewish document. That the Jews did not recognize Him on his coming is true. Yet perhaps you have not heard of Jews for Jesus?

jewsforjesus.org/
 
kbachler said:
Except for mathematical induction (which because of the well-defined set of rules of mathematics allows something to be definitely known), induction does not lead to knowing. Induction leads to a “likelihood that the conclusion is true, if the premises are true” rather than deduction where “the conclusions ARE true, if the premises are true.”

Hence, INDUCTION, does not need to knowing, it leads to BELIEF. There are indicators for the belief, but it is still belief. The arguments are not ironclad.
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I will check with my scientist friends. But it seems to me that induction is used to extrapolate larger conclusions than the basic known conclusion of a particular scientific research project. I certainly may be mistaken. But it seems to me that first evidence is presented and examined six ways to Sunday and then a conclusion by induction is known.

Often in an introduction to a research paper, the theory to be proved is presented. So in that sense the conclusion known from the evidence proves the theory which would be deduction. The interesting thing is that often the evidence is chosen to support the theory and then tests are run to see if the known evidence really does what the researchers think it will.

The scientist knows what he is seeing under the proverbial microscope. The correct interpretation is what may or may not be known.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55: 6-9
 
kbachler

*Prior to 1900 people might ask “Is light a wave or a particle?” and expect you to choose one or the other. Today one might say “Light is a wave or a particle” and be quiet comfortable with the description - or even go so far to coin a term like “wavicle”. *

Prior to 1900 most astronomers of the agnostic or deist bent (including Einstein) would have assured you that the universe is most likely eternal and infinite. But that was philosophy, not physics, since there was no way of proving it. Later even Einstein came to the recognition that the universe was created and finite with the demonstration of the Big Bang … which was physics, not philosophy. Einstein’s view of the nature of the universe changed because physics changed. But as you know, physics may not be through changing.

“Wavicle” may some day discovered to be popsicle! 😃

But philosophical principles are not demonstrated by the most recent rage in philosophy. That there are very likely more atheists today than there were 200 years ago doesn’t prove that the latest rage against God is correct and the earlier rage for God was incorrect.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jon

Not according to the Jews.

Yes according to the Jews. Jesus’ coming is prophesied over and over in the New Testament, a Jewish document. That the Jews did not recognize Him on his coming is true. Yet perhaps you have not heard of Jews for Jesus?

jewsforjesus.org/
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The prophecies were Jewish prophecies about a Jewish messiah. Most Jewish people say he doesn’t (didn’t) full fill the prophecies therefore not the messiah.

aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

So it seems disingenuous to dismiss all other religions because of “true” prophecies, when the religion that gives Christianity it’s pedigree doesn’t think they’ve been fulfilled. Christianity doesn’t have proprietary rights to God, esp YHWH and His prophecies.

Yes, an Evangelical group that poses as Jews yes I’ve heard of them. What of them?
 
jonfawkes
*
The prophecies were Jewish prophecies about a Jewish messiah. Most Jewish people say he doesn’t (didn’t) full fill the prophecies therefore not the messiah.*

Do you agree? :rolleyes:
 
jonfawkes said:
The prophecies were Jewish prophecies about a Jewish messiah. Most Jewish people say he doesn’t (didn’t) full fill the prophecies therefore not the messiah.

aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

So it seems disingenuous to dismiss all other religions because of “true” prophecies, when the religion that gives Christianity it’s pedigree doesn’t think they’ve been fulfilled. Christianity doesn’t have proprietary rights to God, esp YHWH and His prophecies.

Yes, an Evangelical group that poses as Jews yes I’ve heard of them. What of them?
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Many don’t interpret the prophecies as being about a Messiah at all, but rather about Israel.
 
jonfawkes

Does it matter?

Why are you dodging the question? A simple yes or no will suffice. 😃
 
Right, as you pointed out " truth" is contextual. Prophecies Fulfilled in Christianity, not in Judaism, something else entirely for someone else. Faith is not fact. I just choose not to look down my nose at other faiths like some ( not you 🙂 )
 
We were talking about Pascal’s invocation of the OT prophecies that prefigure and testify to the authenticity of Christ as the one true God. As a Catholic you accept Christ as the one true God, so you would seem to agree with Pascal that OT prophecies have merit as objective evidence. If you were not a Christian or a Jew, you would still have to be puzzled that the OT has so many prophecies that suggest Jesus is the messenger of the OT God.

Pascal’s point is that no other major religion that one would choose from has the same or a comparable claim to prophecies being fulfilled so far as the ancient past and the future fate of the world are concerned. Judaism participates in the validity of those prophecies from our Catholic point of view.
 
jonfawkes

*My faith is not theirs, so what I think of theirs doesn’t matter. *

I’m really more interested in where you come from with respect to your own faith. Do you believe the prophecies of the OT were fulfilled in Jesus?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
We were talking about Pascal’s invocation of the OT prophecies that prefigure and testify to the authenticity of Christ as the one true God. As a Catholic you accept Christ as the one true God, so you would seem to agree with Pascal that OT prophecies have merit as objective evidence. If you were not a Christian or a Jew, you would still have to be puzzled that the OT has so many prophecies that suggest Jesus is the messenger of the OT God.

Pascal’s point is that no other major religion that one would choose from has the same or a comparable claim to prophecies being fulfilled so far as the ancient past and the future fate of the world are concerned. Judaism participates in the validity of those prophecies from our Catholic point of view.
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No, you are missing the point entirely. As a Christian I can point to the prophecies and say “see, I’ve made the correct decision, it is a plain as the nose on your face” my Jewish friend can say “well, if that’s how you want to see it but…”

It is not objective, faith is subjective to the paradigm that it functions in. So what is “true” for me and functions as a faith doesn’t have to be for one of another faith. None of it can be proven, just accepted. I don’t have to disprove another faith for my faith to be valid for me.
 
To bring it back to the OT - PW makes assumptions based on the Christian view of God. So it’s a “preaching to the Choir” type of odds making. If you are a Christian you look at it and go “of course - makes perfect sense” Pascal is a right headed man for the ages who should be lauded.

If you don’t prescribe to the Christian view of God, it doesn’t make as much sense. If you are a Deist and prescribe to the “watchmaker” view of God - It doesn’t matter to God either way if you believe in Him or not - so the wager makes little sense. “Why would God care if I believe in Him or not?”
 
jonfawkes said:
To bring it back to the OT - PW makes assumptions based on the Christian view of God. So it’s a “preaching to the Choir” type of odds making. If you are a Christian you look at it and go “of course - makes perfect sense” Pascal is a right headed man for the ages who should be lauded.

If you don’t prescribe to the Christian view of God, it doesn’t make as much sense. If you are a Deist and prescribe to the “watchmaker” view of God - It doesn’t matter to God either way if you believe in Him or not - so the wager makes little sense. “Why would God care if I believe in Him or not?”
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While belief in God is nice; it is the relationship with God that really matters.
 
grannymh said:
While belief in God is nice; it is the relationship with God that really matters.
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That is a weakness of PW - you can believe and still be morally reprehensible and still go to hell. Belief ≠ salvation.
 
jonfawkes

*That is a weakness of PW - you can believe and still be morally reprehensible and still go to hell. Belief ≠ salvation. *

It’s not a weakness of Pascal’s Wager. It’s a weakness of our human nature that we choose hell before heaven.
 
jonfawkes said:
To bring it back to the OT - PW makes assumptions based on the Christian view of God. So it’s a “preaching to the Choir” type of odds making. If you are a Christian you look at it and go “of course - makes perfect sense” Pascal is a right headed man for the ages who should be lauded.

If you don’t prescribe to the Christian view of God, it doesn’t make as much sense. If you are a Deist and prescribe to the “watchmaker” view of God - It doesn’t matter to God either way if you believe in Him or not - so the wager makes little sense. “Why would God care if I believe in Him or not?”
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That’s agood point! There’s lotsa peeps out there who don’t buy a christian god or a muslim, jewish, or hindu, or anything god, and are still spiritual. I thinking this pw stuff doesn’t go far with them.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*That is a weakness of PW - you can believe and still be morally reprehensible and still go to hell. Belief ≠ salvation. *

It’s not a weakness of Pascal’s Wager. It’s a weakness of our human nature that we choose hell before heaven.
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No, you misunderstand (or perhaps you believe “sole fide” - ex-Lutheran? ) As Catholics we contend that belief alone doesn’t get you to heaven, which is all PW is betting on. Belief vs Non-Belief. If you believe you get heaven = ∞ happiness, non belief = ∞ punishment. As Catholics we don’t believe it works that way. It’s a flaw of PW.
 
aQman said:
That’s agood point! There’s lotsa peeps out there who don’t buy a christian god or a muslim, jewish, or hindu, or anything god, and are still spiritual. I thinking this pw stuff doesn’t go far with them.
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I agree with you. I recognize human nature as including the spiritual regardless.
 
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