Pascal's Wager Argument

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grannymh said:
Heaven would not be a shoo-in for those humans who are capable of using their innate abilities of intellect and will. God’s heaven is a two-sided situation. Actually the betting odds for the wager would be one in four. Similar to the odds on a blind date.
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I don’t think I’m understanding you. Are you saying - if we use our God given intellect we’re too smart for heaven.
 
kbachler said:
Not a non sequitur, but true. All we can have are indications about the likelihood of what we choose to believe.
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Still looks like a non sequitur: why can’t those ‘indications’ be conclusive? Why can’t they move ‘mere belief’ to ‘knowledge’?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

Still doesn’t answer the question though.

I guess you forgot your catechism lessons too? Sloth (refusal to work at anything) is one of the seven deadly sins.

deadlysins.com/sins/index.htm

You don’t get to Purgatory for a deadly sin … unless you repent sincerely.

But as you know, Purgatory is a temporary condition. The only real choice to be made, according to Pascal, is between Heaven and Hell. Purgatory is not a final state.

Basic Catholicism 101
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No I’m not talking about sloth, but rather not actively seeking heaven or hell.

You said Heaven requires work, and hell requires work.

To granny’s statement -
All one has to do is to be reasonably good, relatively speaking, because that is all that an existent God wants. With their philosophy, heaven is a shoo-in.
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They are on the “good” side - they aren’t actively seeking hell nor actively seeking heaven. Just muddling along.
 
jonfawkes

*They are on the “good” side - they aren’t actively seeking hell nor actively seeking heaven. Just muddling along. *

You want to separate morality from God. If God exists and therefore is the source of all morality, how can we love without loving God? You want to escape Pascal’s requirement that we choose by arguing that heaven is ours without even lip service to God, that we can get it on our own with no help from the Almighty?

I guess as a Catholic you should know that is heresy.

Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.

You don’t get to dismiss God, violate the greatest commandment, and just muddle along into heaven on your own wings.
 
Betterave said:
Still looks like a non sequitur: why can’t those ‘indications’ be conclusive? Why can’t they move ‘mere belief’ to ‘knowledge’?
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It is because objective reality is being denied. And human reasoning has been downgraded to that of a productive ant.
 
Read Pascal’s Provincial Letters written against the Jesuits and you will see how handily he raked them over the coals for toadying to the morals of the day … easy morals for an easy, self-congratulating pathway to heaven without the teachings of Christ in the Gospels.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*They are on the “good” side - they aren’t actively seeking hell nor actively seeking heaven. Just muddling along. *

You want to separate morality from God. If God exists and therefore is the source of all morality, how can we love without loving God? You want to escape Pascal’s requirement that we choose by arguing that heaven is ours without even lip service to God, that we can get it on our own with no help from the Almighty?

I guess as a Catholic you should know that is heresy.

Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.

You don’t get to dismiss God, violate the greatest commandment, and just muddle along into heaven on your own wings.
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So you and Granny contend that people that don’t go to church are going to hell? It is impossible to love God without going to church?
 
grannymh said:
No.
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So could you explain this further
grannymh said:
Heaven would not be a shoo-in for those humans who are capable of using their innate abilities of intellect and will. God’s heaven is a two-sided situation. Actually the betting odds for the wager would be one in four. Similar to the odds on a blind date.
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It seems to read “going to heaven is difficult for those that use their intellect and will.”
 
jonfawkes said:
So could you explain this further
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Don’t need to. Which means don’t want to.
Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Heaven would not be a shoo-in for those humans who are capable of using their innate abilities of intellect and will. God’s heaven is a two-sided situation. Actually the betting odds for the wager would be one in four. Similar to the odds on a blind date.
Click to expand...
Originally Posted by jonfawkes forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
It seems to read “going to heaven is difficult for those that use their intellect and will.”
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Yup. Which means that those who are capable of using both their will and intellect will find it difficult to gain heaven. That is the story of human life.
 
jonfawkes

*So you and Granny contend that people that don’t go to church are going to hell? It is impossible to love God without going to church? *

It is impossible to go to heaven without loving God.

Catholicism 101. You said you have always been Catholic. Have you ever been catechized in the Catholic Church? If not, RCIA might be something to consider.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*So you and Granny contend that people that don’t go to church are going to hell? It is impossible to love God without going to church? *

It is impossible to go to heaven without loving God.

Catholicism 101. You said you have always been Catholic. Have you ever been catechized in the Catholic Church? If not, RCIA might be something to consider.
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Yep been catechized 🙂 12 years of catholic school :nun2:

I know the importance of the Eucharist and the other sacraments (which is what is covered in the CCC) - I’m asking your opinion - you seem to think that people that don’t go to church are not capable of loving God. It is possible to receive the sacraments and not be a regular church goer. So what say you?
 
grannymh said:
Yup. Which means that those who are capable of using both their will and intellect will find it difficult to gain heaven. That is the story of human life.
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Why? Do you see them as function of pride, or do you take the “we as the sheep” analogy literally? Don’t question, do what you are told.
 
jonfawkes
*
I’m asking your opinion - you seem to think that people that don’t go to church are not capable of loving God.*

They are capable of loving God. Do they love God? If they do not even bother to make a point of keeping holy the Sabbath, how much love is there? It is possible that in certain circumstances someone might not be able to go to church regularly. If that is beyond their control, as with illness or a great distance from church, no fault can be found.

This thread is not about loving God so much as about the possibility of being saved without loving God. Pascal says no. Do you believe anyone can be saved if he denies God, and therefore obviously does not love God?
 
jonfawkes said:
Why? Do you see them as function of pride, or do you take the “we as the sheep” analogy literally? Don’t question, do what you are told.
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Neither.
My guess is that Pascal knew the answer or at least the right question.

Catholicism teaches that Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a person back toward God, but the consequences for our human nature persist and summon us to spiritual battle. Such consequences include the triple concupiscence that subjugates humans to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason. Sin is present in human history and none of us are totally immune from its temptations.
 
grannymh said:
Heaven would not be a shoo-in for those humans who are capable of using their innate abilities of intellect and will. God’s heaven is a two-sided situation. Actually the betting odds for the wager would be one in four. Similar to the odds on a blind date.
Click to expand...
grannymh said:
Catholicism teaches that Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a person back toward God, but the consequences for our human nature persist and summon us to spiritual battle. Such consequences include the triple concupiscence that subjugates humans to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason. Sin is present in human history and none of us are totally immune from its temptations.
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Your statements seem contradictory - the first seems to have reason/intellect as a stumbling block. The second reason is a counter to the pleasures of the senses. :hmmm:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes
*
I’m asking your opinion - you seem to think that people that don’t go to church are not capable of loving God.*

They are capable of loving God. Do they love God? If they do not even bother to make a point of keeping holy the Sabbath, how much love is there? It is possible that in certain circumstances someone might not be able to go to church regularly. If that is beyond their control, as with illness or a great distance from church, no fault can be found.

This thread is not about loving God so much as about the possibility of being saved without loving God. Pascal says no. Do you believe anyone can be saved if he denies God, and therefore obviously does not love God?
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The thread is about the wager - which is - God exists vs God doesn’t exit. We’re just taking a side bar 🙂

It seems presumptuous to judge the love of God of another based on church attendance. How do you see in their hearts? :confused:

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 7:1 [/BIBLEDRB]
 
jonfawkes said:
Created by a loving God, Why wouldn’t it be? :hmmm:
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JF:

That is a good comment. Nowhere does the Catholic Church state that there is a single human soul in Hell. In fact, we worry more about Purgatory, don’t we?

God bless,
jd
 
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