Pascal's Wager Argument

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Your statements seem contradictory - the first seems to have reason/intellect as a stumbling block. The second reason is a counter to the pleasures of the senses. :hmmm:
Apparently you have missed my previous posts. That is quite understandable.

What I have expressed is in keeping with Catholic teaching as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

I do realize that a number of Catholics are not familiar with Catholic teaching. There is nothing more I can say.
 
JF:

That is a good comment. Nowhere does the Catholic Church state that there is a single human soul in Hell. In fact, we worry more about Purgatory, don’t we?

God bless,
jd
Why would the Catholic Church take a census of hell? :rolleyes:

Many the same reason that Pascal’s wager has only a 25% (1 in 4) chance of being beneficial. 😉
 
jonfawkes

*It seems presumptuous to judge the love of God of another based on church attendance. How do you see in their hearts? *

Quite right. We cannot see into anyone’s heart and so we are not to judge. But God has told us how He will judge. He has not been ambiguous about it. Not keeping holy the Sabbath is a rejection of God’s commandment. Actions have consequences. God doesn’t tell us that he makes exceptions for those who love their neighbor but have no use for God. And why should He? If we want nothing to do with God, why shouldn’t He honor our wishes on the day of judgment. Do you think God is going to force anyone into heaven?

WHY BELIEVE?

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

“Fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God.’” Psalms 14:1

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

All of the above is consistent with Pascal’s view that we have everything to gain and everything to lose depending on how we choose.
 
Why would the Catholic Church take a census of hell? :rolleyes:

Many the same reason that Pascal’s wager has only a 25% (1 in 4) chance of being beneficial. 😉
Granny:

No “census” is required. Revelation nowhere says that there is a single human soul in hell. We are told of the propensity for that place, but, in no place does Scripture state so-and-so went to, or, is now in, Hell. Now, it is quite possible that there might always be a first one. And, it is quite possible that there may be human souls in hell. But, to say, definitively, that there are human souls in hell, is to postulate.

God bless,
jd
 
JF:

That is a good comment. Nowhere does the Catholic Church state that there is a single human soul in Hell. In fact, we worry more about Purgatory, don’t we?

God bless,
jd
It seems to me that some people feel that they don’t deserve something without work. The predominate imagery of God esp. in the N.T. is one of parent and child. This is unconditional love, there is no work required. So to think that we are unworthy from the get go and must work our way back into love - seems misguided. I do think that we can move our self away from God’s love, but it’s not something that He does, but something we do to ourselves. Like seeking shade in abundant sunlight.
 
Granny:

No “census” is required. Revelation nowhere says that there is a single human soul in hell. We are told of the propensity for that place, but, in no place does Scripture state so-and-so went to, or, is now in, Hell. Now, it is quite possible that there might always be a first one. And, it is quite possible that there may be human souls in hell. But, to say, definitively, that there are human souls in hell, is to postulate.

God bless,
jd
My good friend. I would never postulate that there are souls in hell because it is not my place to take a census. Seriously, I would take the warnings of Jesus Christ as a very good indication that hell can be chosen. And wasn’t there a parable about a man on the other side of a great divide? Of course, parables are parables.

Speaking of wagers, I wouldn’t place a penny on the fact that Scripture doesn’t state who is in hell. There are plenty of candidates who lived after the Apostolic Age. Maybe that is why I am totally unimpressed with Pascal–there is no degree of certainty involved with the wager. Non-existence and non-declaring doesn’t work for me.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16&17
 
Apparently you have missed my previous posts. That is quite understandable.

What I have expressed is in keeping with Catholic teaching as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

I do realize that a number of Catholics are not familiar with Catholic teaching. There is nothing more I can say.
I’ve read you posts - I read the CCC - It speaks to the nature of man (and women, their equality) and his relationship to God. Intellect being a hindrance and a help doesn’t come up.
 
jonfawkes

*It seems presumptuous to judge the love of God of another based on church attendance. How do you see in their hearts? *

Quite right. We cannot see into anyone’s heart and so we are not to judge. But God has told us how He will judge. He has not been ambiguous about it. Not keeping holy the Sabbath is a rejection of God’s commandment. Actions have consequences. God doesn’t tell us that he makes exceptions for those who love their neighbor but have no use for God. And why should He? If we want nothing to do with God, why shouldn’t He honor our wishes on the day of judgment. Do you think God is going to force anyone into heaven?

WHY BELIEVE?

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

“Fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God.’” Psalms 14:1

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

All of the above is consistent with Pascal’s view that we have everything to gain and everything to lose depending on how we choose.
None of your quotes mention going to church. Is that the only way to honor the sabbath?
 
More false, fallacious, groundless *ad hominem *nonsense, some truly irrational brain farts - and, still, none of it deserving of respect. Lord have mercy. :o
In questions concerning God, ad hominem (literally “to the man”) is always the wrong place to look. We must look to God to reveal Himself to us.

God reveals Himself and His attributes and power through what He has made:
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” (Rom 1:20)

God reveals Himself through fulfilled prophecy:
“Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not yet been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’” (Isaiah 46:10)

God reveals Himself through His Son:
“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” (Heb 1:1-3)

Heb 11:6
 
jonfawkes

*It seems to me that some people feel that they don’t deserve something without work. The predominate imagery of God esp. in the N.T. is one of parent and child. This is unconditional love, there is no work required. *

No work required?

MATTHEW 25
Code:
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

No work required? Which group were the workers, and which group were the shirkers?
 
Wow. This thread has really taken off since I last checked it. Excuse me if I rehash points that have been recently covered, because I’m going to post as if the last few weeks never happened.

hecd2,

I hope the following will give you a good idea of how I view Pascal’s Wager (or any potential PW variants) as well as its relevance to some of the subjects we’ve discussed already, primarily doxastic voluntarism (DV), the definition/constitution of belief, belief in an external world (EW), etc. It isn’t supposed to be an argument; only an outline of roughly where I stand and what issues I think are most pertinent.

Pragmatism Just Ain’t Gonna Work

Question
What do we mean by ‘true’?
My Answer
In our context, the word signifies either *the quality/presence of correspondence between a propositional judgment and the real world, or *that which is the case, i.e., the fact of the matter. No one here seems to apply the term in a fashion merely noting practical, success-oriented propositions (such that “This is true!” would translate to: “This works to my or society’s benefit!” or “Believing in this maximizes utility!”)

Question
What, then, is the truth (per se, in this thread’s context)?
My (Stolen) Answer
The truth is the conformity/agreement/adequation of thing (e.g., physical object, mental concept, propositional assertion/referent, etc.) and intellect (e.g., the mind’s judgment, belief, intentional structure, etc.).

Question
Just how, as such, is a pragmatic belief pertinent to the truth of the matter, if at all?
My Answer
That would depend on what genuinely counts as “pragmatic”. Let: an intellectual agent’s (A’s) belief b is a pragmatic belief =df b is, on the whole, beneficial to A’s well-being; or: b is a useful, efficient means to some further end for A; or: b excellently serves the/some good of A.

It seems the pragmatic quality of b is not essentially relevant to the truth of b, since intuitively there is any number of false beliefs which “work for” A yet are false. [Example: J, really an idiot, nonetheless (and, I suppose, true to the description) believes he is the smartest man in his entire company, which gives J the confidence to avoid hesitant over-analysis and self-doubting mistakes, as well as causes his boss to lend him extra credence – and higher-paying promotions.] However, according to the third definition of ‘pragmatic’, which resorts to goodness, there just might be a necessary link from the practical to the truth if, say, there’s an essential inseparability and coextension of everything true and everything good (two of “the transcendentals”). I’d ultimately like to take this route, although its final claims to “proof” are probably quite modest. More later.

Question
What is knowledge?
My Answer
Knowledge is the intellect’s reflective awareness that its own judgment is true (i.e., conforms to the state of reality). The knowing intellect is one in which the true is known as the truth. This doesn’t necessarily take any side in the debate between foundationalism vs. reliabilism, internalism vs. externalism, etc.
 
DV

Q
Is it possible for A to will belief, to choose b, not because he thinks b is true, but because he thinks b is good or useful to believe?
A
Yes, but I doubt that there are any cases in which the choice to believe b is 100% free and unconditioned or uninfluenced by truth-consideration. We will need a definition and analysis of belief.

A believes p =df A acts as if p is true (viz., mental/psychological action); or: A affirms the truth of p; or: A intellectually entertains p and, after and as a result of reflective assessment of p’s “form” against his own knowledge (or just his own established belief system), decides to incorporate p into that belief system, or “doxastic framework”, so to speak.

So there are two stages. First, the proposition is entertained by the mind as a mere proposition, a possibly-true state of affairs about reality. This mental entertainment is done by assessing the new belief-candidate in the light of either immediate knowledge or else one’s pre-existing system of judgments about external reality. Eventually, the intellect will either discover coherent, explanatory, supportive value in p (and likely accept it), spot a conflict with a pre-existing belief (contradiction, rejection of old or new, perhaps acceptance of its opposite), or both (might tentatively assign a weak position or hold in “limbo” pending further data), or neither (free-for-all?). Think of a new proposition as a pledge to a frat. An assessment panel judges him, then an executive committee ultimately makes a decision in light of the previous panel’s review. The more obvious his merits, the less of a “free decision” it really is.

I maintain that the will has the final say whenever a proposition’s merits are less than certain. The extent of its influence will vary with the degree of certainty. The more certainty, the less volitional power, etc.

Q
What is the nature of one’s “doxastic framework”?
A
It is the set of all one’s representational concepts, judgments, opinions, principles, etc., which maps how one sees the external world – at least once and whenever not immediately faced with it (in other words, whenever there’s uncertainty). It is A’s “intentional world”, his organized web of judgments, about the external world, which serve to guide him through that world. The “mental world” is like the explorer’s individually drawn map; he can mark it up w/a private or public rule-based “grammar” to better get himself or others around in the future (especially, say, if what they once knew becomes “hidden”).

Q
Is A’s “doxastic incorporation” of p ultimately, or primarily, an act of the intellect or the will?
A
If the former, then the incorporation is in a sense “compelled” by a somewhat undeniable recognition of truth. If the latter, then it’s perhaps probably a selfish practical decision, arguably a “debasement” (of mind, of truth). The intellect is that which is naturally oriented to the true; the will is that which tends by naturally to the good.

The true: a thing’s internal, causally inert existence within an intellect. (The intellect passively receives an external object, whereby it takes on an intentional mode, truth, or being-as-seen/known.)
The good: the outward, or external, manifestation/realization of an intellect’s internal intention. (The will activates the passive intellect’s content.)

Q
What is the nature and purpose, or good, of A’s internal, intellectual representation of external reality?
A
A is acquainted with something intelligible and his intellect reflects its form into its own “ideal space”. This reflection is at the command of the will, which makes the decisions of which presented objects it desires to focus, or “shine the light of the intellect” on. The act of reflection amounts to abstraction; the form of the known object is abstracted from the thing itself and given its own sort of “conceptual matter”. (This may be brain matter, if you like. The abstraction of form, then, could be tantamount to the mind’s imposed organization of a neural network. In basically all cases, the brain’s reaction is influenced both by sensation of the thing and “itself”; but autonomy enters more w/judgment than w/conceptualization.)

EW

The mind’s map of the external world necessarily and by nature presupposes the existence of an external world. Whenever one makes any assertion or entertains a proposition, the underlying “assumption” is that it is about something pre-existent or pre-established, something out of its control at the time, already settled. In that sense, “external” might be closely identified by being outside of the will’s range of causal command. The external world is what the intellect receives as pre-existing, not what only exists due to its current action (like, say, an imagined witch – though technically that very imagined being would be “external” once it is presented to the intellect as a memory (which presumably is stored “in” the physical brain), since the new presentation would exist independently of the new intellectual action.
  1. Thing is presented to intellect;
  2. Intellect reflects thing internally;
  3. Will decides what to do with intellect’s intention;
    4.(a) If good, the will manifests the intention externally via the body (belief; such as by informing the brain’s memory bank w/it and storing it for quick recall);
    4.(b) If not good, the will may very well let it be forgotten.
 
The above may have been mostly just for my own benefit. In any case, I hope I’ve clarified some of the issues surrounding PW. A lot of it depends on how one conceives of goodness, truth, the intellect, and the will, in my opinion. For instance, I’d argue that PW could move beyond the strictly pragmatic and into theoretically truth-conducive territory due to the fact (which I’ve yet to remotely argue for yet) that the will’s fundamental function is the perfection of the intellect.

[The perfection of the intellect is knowledge, and knowledge requires truth, conformity between internal intention and external object. Whenever the intellect has an unrealized good intention (lacks truth and knowledge), the will acts to make the external form of it, to realize it, thus bringing about truth and knowledge. In short, the will primarily seeks the good of the intellect, while the intellect seeks the truth of the world.]

Some of these ideas are still tentative for me, too. I’ll try not to let that force you into having to hit a moving target though. I’m still planning to get to the point-by-point responses to you and to Touchstone. It often gets frustrating, though, when I type something and know that there’s likely a more fundamental disagreement of yours that obviously won’t square w/my response, and which remains a blank assertion until I give a reason to accept it. I like to dive right to the bottom and move past the more superficial disputes that logically arise from them, that is, whenever I get the impression that may be muddling things. I hate when I know one of my rebuttals hinges on something I already know won’t itself be agreed upon.
 
jonfawkes

It seems to me that some people feel that they don’t deserve something without work. The predominate imagery of God esp. in the N.T. is one of parent and child. This is unconditional love, there is no work required.

No work required?

MATTHEW 25
Code:
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

No work required? Which group were the workers, and which group were the shirkers?
How is that work? Love God, Love your neighbor. Love isn’t work. If it is, you’re doing wrong 🙂
 
I’ve read you posts - I read the CCC - It speaks to the nature of man (and women, their equality) and his relationship to God. Intellect being a hindrance and a help doesn’t come up.
If intellect is a hindrance – I will take your word for that – than one should follow one’s heart with love for God. In any case, innate curiosity can have us seeking God. When we honestly seek God, our journey, tough as it can be, will eventually lead us into God’s presence.

Seriously, I am old enough to know that there are many worldviews different than mine. Does that change the value of an individual person? Of course not. Each human person is worthy of profound respect.

Can I change another’s worldview? Not very often. All I can do is present what I know to be true in the best way I can. Then I trust that the other person will do his or her best to understand over time. I also trust that the other person will come in contact with someone else who can better present the truth. I am not in control of other people’s intellect and will.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
If intellect is a hindrance – I will take your word for that – than one should follow one’s heart with love for God. In any case, innate curiosity can have us seeking God. When we honestly seek God, our journey, tough as it can be, will eventually lead us into God’s presence.
It’s not my word, it’s yours 🙂
Yup. Which means that those who are capable of using both their will and intellect will find it difficult to gain heaven. That is the story of human life.
I was curious about your statement, I haven’t asserted anything.
 
jonfawkes

How is that work? Love God, Love your neighbor. Love isn’t work. If it is, you’re doing wrong.

I’m afraid you have become a minimalist in your communications. And you obviously don’t like work. 😃
 
jonfawkes

How is that work? Love God, Love your neighbor. Love isn’t work. If it is, you’re doing wrong.

I’m afraid you have become a minimalist in your communications. And you obviously don’t like work. 😃
I just think being compassionate is work*.

*Your mileage may differ. 😃
 
In Spiration

*For instance, I’d argue that PW could move beyond the strictly pragmatic and into theoretically truth-conducive territory due to the fact (which I’ve yet to remotely argue for yet) that the will’s fundamental function is the perfection of the intellect. *

I think Pascal sees that too. Whereas intellect cannot decide positively whether there is or is not a God, **will **engenders the discovery of God. Unfortunately, will is not always an infallible guide to perfecting the intellect in the discovery of God. There are those who will not to find God, and who will instruct intellect to aid and abet them in rejecting God. The will is as subject to corruption as the intellect. That being so, it is the grace of God that alone can lift up intellect and will together to a higher plane of consciousness. Still, grace can be rejected. Ultimately it is free will that decides. Free will is the only gift of God to man that God will not take away from any man. God even allows us to choose hell … which is nothing more nor less than absolute and eternal separation from Him. What Pascal is asking is whether intellect can help direct the will back to God, by asking this fundamental question: If there is a God, which is more rational; to live as though there is no God, or to live as though there is a God?
 
In Spiration

*For instance, I’d argue that PW could move beyond the strictly pragmatic and into theoretically truth-conducive territory due to the fact (which I’ve yet to remotely argue for yet) that the will’s fundamental function is the perfection of the intellect. *

I think Pascal sees that too. Whereas intellect cannot decide positively whether there is or is not a God, **will **engenders the discovery of God. Unfortunately, will is not always an infallible guide to perfecting the intellect in the discovery of God. There are those who will not to find God, and who will instruct intellect to aid and abet them in rejecting God. The will is as subject to corruption as the intellect. That being so, it is the grace of God that alone can lift up intellect and will together to a higher plane of consciousness. Still, grace can be rejected. Ultimately it is free will that decides. Free will is the only gift of God to man that God will not take away from any man. God even allows us to choose hell … which is nothing more nor less than absolute and eternal separation from Him. What Pascal is asking is whether intellect can help direct the will back to God, by asking this fundamental question: If there is a God, which is more rational; to live as though there is no God, or to live as though there is a God?
If he takes away your intellect or limits it, He takes away your free will - no?

The mentally handicapped, those with dementia, children before the age of reason, brain injury sufferers, - they don’t understand the full gravity of their decisions how can they be culpable. You can’t make a free decision if you don’t know what you are deciding.
 
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