Pascal's Wager Once More

[Moonstruck888]

It is based on the notion that God is compassionate and values honesty and integrity. If God is not, then why are you worshipping him?

Dishonesty does not deserve compassion.
*
How can you bear false witness if you tell what to the best of your knowledge is the truth? *

That is a cop-out. The best of our knowledge offers no proof that God does not exist. Even if there were no evidence either way, it is more judicious to believe than not. That is Pascal’s argument. We don’t get a free pass for nobility by comforting ourselves with the illusion that God does not exist based on no evidence whatever, and then expecting God to deny one’s fondest wish … which is to have nothing more to do with Him through all eternity.

Wish granted.

Okay… Tell me then, which God should I feign belief in? Which God values nobility the least?

 

[Moonstruck888]

Moon, yes, you have misunderstood Pascal’s argument. In its most general form his argument is that to the best of our knowledge 1) it is possible that God exists, and 2) that given this possibility it is foolish not to try to learn to know Him.

Again, which God would you suggest it most prudent for me to blasphemously fool myself into thinking I can, in my wisdom, “learn to know”?

And by the way, my name is Moonstruck. Please do me the honour of using it correctly or not using it at all…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*Okay… Tell me then, which God should I feign belief in? Which God values nobility the least? *

I agree. Pascal does not say we should feign belief in any God. But one can grow in the belief in God and the love of God just by giving God the benefit of the doubt. This is done over a whole lifetime, with the possibility of some false starts and many missteps along the way, as even a Mother Teresa would admit. Those who want God to reveal Himself entire and without doubt are never going to be satisfied with the blood, sweat, and tears that it takes to be a good Christian. One starts, however, with blind faith in the God of one’s choosing, and works upward to the real Thing. The God of one’s choosing will be a noble God only if we are searching for nobility. It is difficult to scan the vast pantheon of gods and find one more nobler than the One who said there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends; and then went on to prove it by doing so.

 

[Moonstruck888]

*Okay… Tell me then, which God should I feign belief in? Which God values nobility the least? *

I agree. Pascal does not say we should feign belief in any God. But one can grow in the belief in God and the love of God just by giving God the benefit of the doubt. This is done over a whole lifetime, with the possibility of some false starts and many missteps along the way, as even a Mother Teresa would admit. Those who want God to reveal Himself entire and without doubt are never going to be satisfied with the blood, sweat, and tears that it takes to be a good Christian. One starts, however, with blind faith in the God of one’s choosing, and works upward to the real Thing. The God of one’s choosing will be a noble God only if we are searching for nobility. It is difficult to scan the vast pantheon of gods and find one more nobler than the One who said there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends; and then went on to prove it by doing so.

Okay, so clarify for me, are Ancient Greeks or Norsemen or Yoruba tribesmen in Heaven, provided their belief was sincere?

 

[Betterave]

I think that if I practiced a belief in God despite not believing in God, something that around forty percent of the clergy do in the Anglican Church including the Archbishop of Canterbury in order to have a beautiful house and company car laid on, I’d be guilty of hypocrisy.

I have nothing against anyone who genuinely believe in God, but atheists who profit from a pretense at belief in God are, to me, a particularly dishonest and shabby bunch.

lol! Well I don’t think any of us will disagree with that!

 

[Moonstruck888]

lol! Well I don’t think any of us will disagree with that!

Excellent place to start Rave. So what is it that you disagree with? Why do feel that Blaise’s used car lot is better than yours or mine?

 

[Betterave]

Again, which God would you suggest it most prudent for me to blasphemously fool myself into thinking I can, in my wisdom, “learn to know”?

And by the way, my name is Moonstruck. Please do me the honour of using it correctly or not using it at all…

Which God? Obviously the one which is, to the best of your ability to discern such matters, the real one! If you’d like some more specific guidance, I’d recommend reading Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners.

That said, what ‘blasphemy’ are you talking about? Are you sure you know what blasphemy is? (Sorry for ‘blaspheming’ your name, I had no idea it might be holy to you. )

p.s.: To answer your last post, I disagree with your use of the phrase “blasphemously fool myself.” I don’t know much about used cars though.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Which God? Obviously the one which is, to the best of your ability to discern such matters, the real one! If you’d like some more specific guidance, I’d recommend reading Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners.

That said, what ‘blasphemy’ are you talking about? Are you sure you know what blasphemy is? (Sorry for ‘blaspheming’ your name, I had no idea it might be holy to you. )

The real one? Allah? Wotan? Prometheus? Shigidi? Mithra? Thor? Kali? Vishnu? Nuit? Dionysius? Isis? Zeus? Deanna? Hera? Apollo?

People wouldn’t die for their faith unless they were very, very sure it was true… I feel very drawn towards Mecca or Shinto…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*Okay, so clarify for me, are Ancient Greeks or Norsemen or Yoruba tribesmen in Heaven, provided their belief was sincere? *

I haven’t the foggiest. Guess you’ll have to ask God, if you get to see Him.

But belief alone is not enough. A Viking would have had to be a good person according to the natural law planted in his heart by God from the beginning. In other words, no raping and plundering and all the other bad stuff!

If the Viking had no knowledge of Christ, no way to say yea or nay, then his actions would speak for the destiny of his immortal soul.

A wonderful opportunity and an extra burden is placed on those who hear of Christ and have been invited to know him. They have been offered a good deal more than ignorant Vikings were offered, so their nay entails vastly greater and dire consequences, even if their actions are in all other respects seemingly laudable. The one action that is never laudable in the presence of the true God is the action that says, “No, thank you.”

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.” 2nd Timothy 2:11-12

 

[Moonstruck888]

*Okay, so clarify for me, are Ancient Greeks or Norsemen or Yoruba tribesmen in Heaven, provided their belief was sincere? *

I haven’t the foggiest. Guess you’ll have to ask God, if you get to see Him.

Well, since you don’t have the foggiest, I guess that I can sing you up for a years subscription to agnostic atheist monthly? Furthermore, since you haven’t the foggiest and therefore lack belief, I guess I’ll be seeing you at the customs office in Pandemonium as a pair of legal immigrants?

But belief alone is not enough. A Viking would have had to be a good person according to the natural law planted in his heart by God from the beginning. In other words, no raping and plundering and all that other bad stuff!

Well, like I said, I’ve never actually commited genocide or killed anyone’s wife and kids to win a bet, I guess I’ll be on the graduate scheme on a fast track to management after my death?

 

[Betterave]

The real one? Allah? Wotan? Prometheus? Shigidi? Mithra? Thor? Kali? Vishnu? Nuit? Dionysius? Isis? Zeus? Deanna? Hera? Apollo?

People wouldn’t die for their faith unless they were very, very sure it was true… I feel very drawn towards Mecca or Shinto…

I gather you’re being facetious, since it would be very unusual to be drawn to both Shintoism and Islam (especially assuming you’re Scottish and not Japanese), but if that was honestly where you felt most drawn, those would indeed be the first places to seek faith, to seek the real God.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Moonstruck

*Well, like I said, I’ve never actually commited genocide or killed anyone’s wife and kids to win a bet, I guess I’ll be on the graduate scheme on a fast track to management after my death? *

Very possibly. But whether you’ll be ruling in the upper house or the lower house is anybody’s guess.

We are not judged until we reach the end, and until then we are all capable of the best and the worst that is in us.

 

[Moonstruck888]

I gather you’re being facetious, since it would be very unusual to be drawn to both Shintoism and Islam (especially assuming you’re Scottish and not Japanese), but if that was honestly where you felt most drawn, those would indeed be the first places to seek faith.

You’re quite correct, I am Scottish… I pledge my allegiance to Mhor Rioghan, in accordance with the imperative of Blaise Pascal.

http://www.swastika.cba.pl/pagan/celt_img/morrigan.jpg

 

[Moonstruck888]

Moonstruck

*Well, like I said, I’ve never actually commited genocide or killed anyone’s wife and kids to win a bet, I guess I’ll be on the graduate scheme on a fast track to management after my death? *

Very possibly. But whether you’ll be ruling in the upper house or the lower house is anybody’s guess.

Charlmagne, I have to admit you’ve actually foxed me on this one, although I see where you, or rather I, would be going with the political analogy…

Upper / Lower House?

 

[Betterave]

You’re quite correct, I am Scottish… I pledge my allegiance to Mhor Rioghan, in accordance with the imperative of Blaise Pascal.

CBA

Is that your girlfriend’s name? I think you’re still misunderstanding Pascal. Maybe you should read him firsthand. Try Peter Kreeft’s Christianity for Modern Pagans: Pascal’s Pensees which provides extensive commentary.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Is that your girlfriend’s name? I think you’re still misunderstanding Pascal. Maybe you should read him firsthand. Try Peter Kreeft’s Christianity for Modern Pagans: Pascal’s Pensees which provides extensive commentary.

Actually, in a manner of speaking…One of my ex girlfriends names was a modern English corruption of Mhor Rioghan.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Maybe you should read him firsthand. Try Peter Kreeft’s Christianity for Modern Pagans: Pascal’s Pensees which provides extensive commentary.

So, for a first hand perspective of Blaise Pascal, I should skip Pascal and read the pensers of Peter Kreeft?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

“The immortality of the soul is a matter which is of so great consequence to us and which touches us so profoundly that we must have lost all feeling to be indifferent about it.” Blaise Pascal

 

[Moonstruck888]

“The immortality of the soul is a matter which is of so great consequence to us and which touches us so profoundly that we must have lost all feeling to be indifferent about it.” Blaise Pascal

Richard Carrier – “Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.”

 

[Anselm33]

QUESTION FOR MOONSTRUCK 888

I’m curious–if you don’t believe in God, and (as I gather from what you’ve posted) see no prospect of ever believing in God, what difference does it make to you if other people a) do believe in God, b) seek to achieve faith in God (from the mustard seed of potential belief)?
I mean no disrespect, just curious about your motivations. I hope this will give me some insight on the motives of other, possibly more militant, non-believers–Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, for example.