Pascal's Wager Revisited

[greylorn]

I’m not entirely sure wether his intention was to show that, but it certainly DOES show it, doesn’t it?

A reward and punishment form of religion, is one that does little more than treating humanity as though it is one more of Pavlovs dogs.

It is dehumanising.

Actually, this is entirely humanizing. Humans believe in promises and lies, provided that the promises and lies are things they want to believe in. Humans are not very bright. Watch some successful TV commercials and determine how much logical or intelligent content they convey. Humans base their purchases not upon information, but upon hype. They buy products based upon cartoons. Adult humans actually watch cartoons. They talk to their pets. They accept and die for absurd beliefs. Human intelligence is vastly overrated.

If the advertising industry did not treat humans like Pavlovian dogs, it would go out of business.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

greylorn
*
Kindly explain why an entity with infinite intelligence would give a hoot why a bunch of humans with I.Q.'s just a few ticks higher than chimpanzees would either believe in his existence or love him.*

Because we are his children. Do you have children? Understanding that your children barely have intelligence above a chimpanzee, don’t you still love them? Don’t you want them to grow with your love for them, and don’t you want them to grow in love with you?

Why should it shock you, or apparently fill you with revulsion, that God might feel the same way about us?

 

[greylorn]

greylorn
*
Kindly explain why an entity with infinite intelligence would give a hoot why a bunch of humans with I.Q.'s just a few ticks higher than chimpanzees would either believe in his existence or love him.*

Because we are his children. Do you have children? Understanding that your children barely have intelligence above a chimpanzee, don’t you still love them? Don’t you want them to grow with your love for them, and don’t you want them to grow in love with you?

Why should it shock you, or apparently fill you with revulsion, that God might feel the same way about us?

A childish answer does not serve as a legitimate explanation. Sure I have offspring. I want them to have positive lives but don’t care if they love me, whatever that means.

More relevant to the point is that they developed intelligence as they grew, and are now more intelligent than chimpanzees. Had they not, I would have no more interest in them than for the neighborhood bear.

Your application of the words “shock” and “revulsion” to my feelings is arrogant and incompetent. Don’t think for me. Don’t pretend to know my feelings or anyone else’s feelings. You have enough of a task ahead merely thinking for yourself.

 

[greylorn]

Well we are not chimpanzees we are humans and we have beliefs. I think God cares about our beliefs because our beliefs are important to who we are. If we include loving others as a form of belief (or at least a consequence of a formation of beliefs) it’s hard to see what could be more important.

What do you think God would be more concerned about with humans other than their beliefs?

Also consider how I understand beliefs as posted above. A belief is more than we give it credit for.

A belief is only an uninformed opinion which lots of people agree with.

Beliefs run, and often ruin our lives.

All current beliefs about the nature of man, the origin of man, and the origin of the universe are incorrect.

The only content of the human mind which is of any value is its conceptual understanding. This would be what is left to someone with amnesia. It would also be what remains of a “soul” after the brain which brought it to consciousness lies rotting in the ground.

Beliefs are simply data. Muslims have them, atheists have them, Buddhists have them. They cannot all be right, and they are more than likely all wrong. Concepts are a different thing, but you’ll have to go out and actually get one before understanding what they are.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I want them to have positive lives but don’t care if they love me, whatever that means.

Common sense tells us that the start of a positive life usually includes a happy family life, and that includes loving one’s mother and father. When you look at most of the people in prison, you find that they have no positive relationship (or no relationship at all) with their fathers.

With your snide remark, I have decided to finish my part in this discussion by reluctantly agreeing with Pascal:

“But as for those who live without knowing Him and without seeking Him, they adjudge themselves so little worthy of their own concern that they are unworthy of the concern of others.” Pensees

 

[joemccarron]

A belief is only an uninformed opinion which lots of people agree with.

Thats not how I or others in the philosophical community understand the term belief. Some beliefs are informed some aren’t. Some beliefs are held by lots of peopel some aren’t. Some are true some aren’t. You are redefining belief here.

…
The only content of the human mind which is of any value is its conceptual understanding. …

Well I am curious (in a somewhat morbid way) what someone who doesn’t care if their “offspring” love (and really doesn’t even think they know what that means) thinks has value. You say conceptual understanding has value. What sort of value? Do you mean its valuable toward some other end? If so what value does that end have? I’m curious how you have come to this belief that conceptual understanding has “value”.

 

[greylorn]

Thats not how I or others in the philosophical community understand the term belief. Some beliefs are informed some aren’t. Some beliefs are held by lots of peopel some aren’t. Some are true some aren’t. You are redefining belief here.

Actually not. I may be extrapolating somewhat, but not redefining. My Webster’s dictionary’s first definition of belief is, “belief, conviction.” 2nd definition: “confidence in the truth or existence of something not susceptible to rigorous proof.”

“Informed” or simply invented on the spot, belief is an unsubstantiated conviction. Of course, believers always declare their particular convictions to be “informed” and “true.” All that means is that lots of other people believe the same thing.

Well I am curious (in a somewhat morbid way) what someone who doesn’t care if their “offspring” love (and really doesn’t even think they know what that means) thinks has value. You say conceptual understanding has value. What sort of value? Do you mean its valuable toward some other end? If so what value does that end have? I’m curious how you have come to this belief that conceptual understanding has “value”.

I once took an advanced EE course in which the 6-week exam consisted of only four simple questions identical to the first week’s homework assignment. Normally anyone who came to class and paid attention would have gotten a nearly-perfect score.

As you know, the normal curve for a relevant college exam will be a typical Gaussian distribution, the classic “bell curve,” with the top of the bell shifted according to the exam’s difficulty. This exam’s grade distribution would normally have peaked sharply at about 95%.

However, the professor threw in a wrinkle. As preface to the exam, he temporarily revised Coulomb’s Law, one of the fundamental laws of electromagnetic theory.

This changed the entire nature of the problems. Any student coming into the exam with an armful of formulas or a brain full of formulas found them absolutely useless. Only those who genuinely understood the math and physics could pass the exam.

The exam curve was a square wave. Those who understood the concepts involved got an easy perfect score; those who did not understand got zip.

If another analogy might help, consider practicing a Chopin Etude written in the key of E-flat and mastering it perfectly, then showing up for your piano recital/exam and being asked to play in the key of A-sharp instead. If you have conceptualized the music, no problem. If you only memorized the music, you flunk.

Do you imagine that anyone who creates, invents, or engineers something which has never been done before could do so without understanding the concepts involved?

 

[Leela]

Hi Joe, Greylorn,

A belief is only an uninformed opinion which lots of people agree with.

If you point is just to say that beliefs may or not be true and may or may not be justified, then I agree. But as a definition of belief, I think you can do no better than joemccarron’s take on belief as a habit of action.

The problem I have, Joe, is that faith is generally taken as mere factual belief in God rather than as truth in God or faithfulness to a religious tradition. The factual belief that Jesus is God as a “habit of action” can be completely empty. Believing that Jesus is God does not necessarily have any pragmattic value, yet it is this mere belief that is so emphasized by many Christians who think that this mere belief alone makes them morally superior to those who do not hold this belief.

Best,
Leela

 

[Dameedna]

Dameedna

Most believers don’t care so much about “god”. They care about their view of him…it’s their own image they are concerned with.

No, believers take their God at His word, not their own.

Exactly. And as long as God(According to their chosen religion) tells them to marry their 12 year old daughters to 50 year old men with 8 wives…they will take God at his word…and allow it.

They follow God, not thier consience, or societies decisions. God, is their higher power. Doesn’t matter how much the “truth” hurts, one MUST follow God. If you don’t…you are simply filled with way too much pride.

Yes…the FDLS…are absolutely sure they have the truth about God and they MUST follow God and submit to him…his word is truth and is above their own views.

Oh yes my friend. I understand that…all too well.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

Yes…I acknowlege God, and the truth of the FDLS.

Why?

Cause they told me so.

THINK…before you believe.

 

[Dameedna]

The view that religion is merely a system of Pavlovian rewards and punishments is childish.

It is a childish view I agree. But to claim it is not religion…is a bit of a stretch.You are…rewarded and punished and it is that reward and punishment that drives you within your religion.

It doesn’t matter how you attempt to justify it. We shall show this motivation of yours below.

It ignores and deliberately precludes the central part of religion, which is to have a loving relationship with the Creator, or not to have a loving relationship.

So if I reject Islam, I choose to not have a loving relationship with God, and hence reject God. To reject your religion, is to reject God. Hence…God…will have no “choice” but to punish me according to every , single religion that exists.

Still…pavlovs dogs.

The central part of your religion is NOT to “accept” god. It is to accept a certain “type” of God, that …will condem you…through your own choice, if you do not accept him.

Pavlovs dogs.

The choice is ours, not God’s, which means that we have immense existential freedom given to us by God, understanding that with that freedom comes the fact that actions have consequences.

Yes, free will has consequences. This has nothing at all to do with God, or your belief about God. It has to do with choice, including your choice in religion.

My choice, to disagree with your religion has nothing to do with God any more than your choice to negate Islam, has anything to do with God.

God is.

We make choices.

You are not a Dog.

We see this throughout life … it is essential in every aspect of our lives that we understand that actions have consequences. No adult thinking person denies this. It is not Pavolovian … it is universal

He showed that animals respond well to reward and punishment.

What the universe responds to, is a matter of debate. lol. Nothing can yet be called “universal”.

Yes, Pavlov’s dogs, exist and we live that world. I think we can do better. Religion, simply encourages it.

You choose to “reject” God, then you “choose” punishment. After all…it is your choic.

Pavlovs dogs.

The attempt to reduce God to a despot by criticizing the concept of heaven and hell as Pavlovian only means that the critic of religion does not want to face the consequence of his actions.

You see? You prove my point entirely with this comment. Those that do not “agree” with God, cannot deal with the consequences. Meaning, when you “agree” with God, you will deal with the consequences…which…for christians is a heaven and a hell.

Pavlov’s dogs.

Sigh…

You cannot become human while the weight of Punishments is held over you. You are simply a beast, making a choice because you will be punished or rewarded for it.

This was Jesus’ message entirely. It is only through Unconditional love, that one can surpass the “fear/reward” syndrom that is so much a part of our nature.

Pavlovs dogs…

 

[Dameedna]

Good - so the next step is to find out what religion says about God. Parsing through the world religions is enlightening.

To arrive at the proper one entails an objective search with preconceived notions set aside.

A study of history, metaphysics, and philosophy will help eliminate the obvious ones and will definitely point you in one direction.

Exactly.

The direction I head toward, is one of truth.

FYI, I have already…through my search, negated catholicism. That was done a long time ago.

There is some interesting history within the church(often silenced) that points to a new direction and I like to see when I can get a glimpse of it.

 

[joemccarron]

Hi Joe, Greylorn,

If you point is just to say that beliefs may or not be true and may or may not be justified, then I agree. But as a definition of belief, I think you can do no better than joemccarron’s take on belief as a habit of action.

The problem I have, Joe, is that faith is generally taken as mere factual belief in God rather than as truth in God or faithfulness to a religious tradition. The factual belief that Jesus is God as a “habit of action” can be completely empty. Believing that Jesus is God does not necessarily have any pragmattic value, yet it is this mere belief that is so emphasized by many Christians who think that this mere belief alone makes them morally superior to those who do not hold this belief.

Best,
Leela

I’m not really saying belief is a habit of action but a disposition to act a certain way given certain circumstances. This might include answering yes when someone asks you if something is true and you believe it is. But obviously people lie etc. So its hard to spell out exactly how someone would act all the time but the point is our beliefs (often but not always) decide how we are going react to certain circumstances.

I wish I had that quote from Quine. He did a better job explaining.

It does not require that you acted that way in the past at all.

As far as what many Christians might believe generally that should not turn you off from religion. Because the Church and likely most other churches would agree that intellectual assent is not sufficient.

 

[joemccarron]

Exactly.

The direction I head toward, is one of truth.

FYI, I have already…through my search, negated catholicism. That was done a long time ago.

There is some interesting history within the church(often silenced) that points to a new direction and I like to see when I can get a glimpse of it.

Dameeda

Please let’s not go the route of secret “interesting” information you have about the church that turns you away. Unless you are willing to lay it out on the table no one can address your doubts through reason.

 

[Dameedna]

Kindly explain why an entity with infinite intelligence would give a hoot why a bunch of humans with I.Q.'s just a few ticks higher than chimpanzees would either believe in his existence or love him. Does God fret similarly over the opinions of chimpanzees?

Lol…the great and Grand God…

THE ETERNAL ONE…

I’m amazed that a God who eternally exists, has the kind of Ego, that requires worship. Worship, gets’ boring after a while(Any cool kid knows this). It’s the rebels and the thinkers…now they are fun.

Of course, I am a heretic of the worst kind. I do not understand those of faith, because they know they have the truth and they love God deeply.

I watch them…and I try to accept them…as they hurt the world, with their faith…

…Then I just go get a beer The devils wine

 

[buffalo]

Exactly.

The direction I head toward, is one of truth.

FYI, I have already…through my search, negated catholicism. That was done a long time ago.

There is some interesting history within the church(often silenced) that points to a new direction and I like to see when I can get a glimpse of it.

You never answered this:

What do not not agree with?

1. 
   *]God is absolutely perfect.
   *] God is actually infinite in every perfection.
   *] God is absolutely simple.
   *] There is only One God.
   *] The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God.
   *] God possesses an infinite power of cognition.
   *] God is absolute Veracity.
   *] God is absolutely faithful.
   *] God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
   *] God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
   *] God is absolute Benignity.
   *] God is absolute Beauty
   *] God is absolutely immutable.
   *] God is eternal.
   *] God is immense or absolutely immeasurable.
   *] God is everywhere present in created space.

 

[Dameedna]

Dameeda

Please let’s not go the route of secret “interesting” information you have about the church that turns you away. Unless you are willing to lay it out on the table no one can address your doubts through reason.

Errm…As I said, I have negated catholicism. I never said I belonged to a secret society…lol.

I do not aggree with catholicism and my search toward truth, has led me far away from it. It’s not biggie…it’s just another religion and another group of humans trying to figure themselves out. Some of the “big” intellectuals of the past, have written about God, and have been embraced by the churcch.

There is some “truth” in it, but once you move beyond it, there is not really any going back.

No Secret. It’s just something you do…once you do it.

Cheers
Dame

 

[joemccarron]

“So if I reject Islam, I choose to not have a loving relationship with God, and hence reject God. To reject your religion, is to reject God. Hence…God…will have no “choice” but to punish me according to every , single religion that exists.”

Dameena
The first statement in your above quote is not true so what follows has no claim to truth.

God’s rewards and punishments need not be seen as Pavlovian. Indeed the church does not view it that way.

It may just be that people who are so arrogant as to not recognize that Humans and their own views are not the begin all and end all do not belong in heaven. Yes Christ and God out of love will do everything from fear to smiting to help us see that, but ultimately we need to see and embrace certain truths before we belong in heaven. Its possible that people who do not love or do not care what loving others means do not belong in heaven. It’s a round peg for a square hole. God wants us to be there so he does whatever he can without overcoming our free will to help us along. But judgment day will not be a day of lengthy arguments. We will all see God judges us rightly, just like we can now see the back of our hand.

Those who don’t want to be with God can choose that but God couldn’t be more plain that that is a bad decision. You don’t have to trust him if you don’t want to. However for us humans who have “IQs just a few ticks higher than Chimpanzees.” trusting God is the rational thing to do.

 

[Leela]

Yes Christ and God out of love will do everything from fear to smiting to help us see that, but ultimately we need to see and embrace certain truths before we belong in heaven.

Clearly, if God exists, he is not willing to do absolutely anything and everything to help us see that. For example, God won’t demonstarte his existence by miraculously healing a single amputee or replacing the faces on Mt Rushmore with those of the last four Popes. The so-called miracles that are supposed to convince us are always far more ambiguous.

Best,
Leela

 

[joemccarron]

Errm…As I said, I have negated catholicism. I never said I belonged to a secret society…lol.

I do not aggree with catholicism and my search toward truth, has led me far away from it. It’s not biggie…it’s just another religion and another group of humans trying to figure themselves out. Some of the “big” intellectuals of the past, have written about God, and have been embraced by the churcch.

There is some “truth” in it, but once you move beyond it, there is not really any going back.

No Secret. It’s just something you do…once you do it.

Cheers
Dame

Well with you interesting history that the church often silenced bit, I feared you were going that route. But I’m glad your not.

I’m also glad you see there is some truth to it. But before you move too far beyond are you sure you got all the truth out of it? Maybe there is some more to be found. After all like you said many smart men thoguht they found a heck of allot of truth in the church.

Going back is not impossible. Although, I agree, it may not be popular in certain circles.

 

[joemccarron]

Clearly, if God exists, he is not willing to do absolutely anything and everything to help us see that. For example, God won’t demonstarte his existence by miraculously healing a single amputee or replacing the faces on Mt Rushmore with those of the last four Popes. The so-called miracles that are supposed to convince us are always far more ambiguous.

Best,
Leela

To those who are given much, much is expected. Be careful what you wish for. God offers grace to all people - although it does appear he gives more to some than others. But those who have more will be expected to yield greater returns. We are asked to do what we can with what we are given. However just because God only gives you some grace don’t think you can discard it because its not as much as others have received. Consider the parable of the talents.